Schwartz, in Memoir, Says F-22 was Traded for B-21 Bomber

[XanderCrews]

XC,

I would also add, since the Democrats have great influence in our news media; If the GOP (Bush 43, or even the 2008 candidates) would have been in favor of more -22s or whatever. I could just have heard it now, the Dem control news media (CBS, NBC, ABC, NYT, WP, MSNBC, CNN, ...) would have said (circa mid 2008):

"Bush or candidate X is in favor of more gold plated overtly expensive jets that are not needed while people are losing their homes (to foreclosure), the stock market is in near free-fall, and people are losing their jobs. Hence, the GOP is out of touch and doesn't understand the middle class or the problems facing working families."


Fast forward to post Jan 20, 2009. It really doesn't matter if Gates or whomever want more -22's. Obama would never been if favor of it. And he wasn't. For 2 years his party controlled everything. That type of military procurement was never on his (Obama) and their (the Dem controlled House and Senate) radar.

2009 was a weird time. Had they chosen to keep the F-22s going, they could have gotten away with it. But they didn't and here we are. It really falls on Gates as he actually served both Presidents as I recall.

My point was simply that with the benefit of hindsight:

A. We should have bought more F-22s because yes they cost big bucks, but we were also going to spend a trillion bucks and have very little tangible things to show for it 5 years later, let alone 10.

B. The Stimulus was an expensive failure


c. The story about cutting F-22s to trade for a hypothetical Strategic bomber 10-20 years in the future is total horseshit, and like hindsight it seems like they are trying to tell us retroactively that was some brilliant forward thinking plan. In other words "Uhh We meant to do that!"

[mixelflick]

Right!

Lke I said, it's a hoax story...

[p33lmybanana]

XC,

I would also add, since the Democrats have great influence in our news media; If the GOP (Bush 43, or even the 2008 candidates) would have been in favor of more -22s or whatever. I could just have heard it now, the Dem control news media (CBS, NBC, ABC, NYT, WP, MSNBC, CNN, ...) would have said (circa mid 2008):

"Bush or candidate X is in favor of more gold plated overtly expensive jets that are not needed while people are losing their homes (to foreclosure), the stock market is in near free-fall, and people are losing their jobs. Hence, the GOP is out of touch and doesn't understand the middle class or the problems facing working families."


Fast forward to post Jan 20, 2009. It really doesn't matter if Gates or whomever want more -22's. Obama would never been if favor of it. And he wasn't. For 2 years his party controlled everything. That type of military procurement was never on his (Obama) and their (the Dem controlled House and Senate) radar.

2009 was a weird time. Had they chosen to keep the F-22s going, they could have gotten away with it. But they didn't and here we are. It really falls on Gates as he actually served both Presidents as I recall.

My point was simply that with the benefit of hindsight:

A. We should have bought more F-22s because yes they cost big bucks, but we were also going to spend a trillion bucks and have very little tangible things to show for it 5 years later, let alone 10.

B. The Stimulus was an expensive failure


c. The story about cutting F-22s to trade for a hypothetical Strategic bomber 10-20 years in the future is total horseshit, and like hindsight it seems like they are trying to tell us retroactively that was some brilliant forward thinking plan. In other words "Uhh We meant to do that!"

Hello everyone. I am a long time stalker. I just signed up and this is my first post

I think cutting the f-22 production line was very prudent at the time. The Chinese were decades from producing a 5th generation jet until they hacked Lockheed Martin servers. We were knee deep in two simultaneous wars in the middle east that required more immediate equipment, such as more drones and armored vehicles. The f-22 was irrelevant to what we were doing. The jet was amazing for its time, however, there were already huge flaws that were apparent at the time. It is a hangar queen which requires too much maintenance, especially to it's Ram coatings. The software and processors have quickly becoming outdated due to the exponential increase in technology since it's inception. Obama had already wanted to shift our interest to ASIA, where the range of the f-22 was in question. We are currently planning a 6th generation fighter. It will have better range, baked in stealth coatings and should be on an order of magnitude better due to what we have learned from the f-22 and f-35.

[southernphantom]

Who is the only...

Your ARFCOM is showing, LRRP

[mixelflick]

Gates sucks. Traitor and guilty of gross negligence.

That is all...

[XanderCrews]

I think cutting the f-22 production line was very prudent at the time. The Chinese were decades from producing a 5th generation jet until they hacked Lockheed Martin servers.

This is a false narrative. But even if it was true, the Chinese who literally flew a J-20 in front of Gates' eyes in 2011 might have been what we call a "clue" that the Chinese were further along than he thought. Seeing as the F-22 line was still running the last F-22 didn't leave the factory until Decemeber 2011, that might have been a great time for a "course correction" but it turns out that Gates was just as stubborn and pig headed as the man he replaced.

It still falls on Gates. All of it, only apologists who don't understand the truth and spin false narratives at this point are still clinging to the idea he made the proper call, even after a "wild J-20 appears!"

We were knee deep in two simultaneous wars in the middle east that required more immediate equipment, such as more drones and armored vehicles.

Iraq was effectively over by 2008. We were "surging" in Afghanistan, but by presidential decree, only temporarily. Simply put it wasn't going to be RPGs and IED forever and even you mention the shift to more important theaters, like ASIA:

Obama had already wanted to shift our interest to ASIA, where the range of the f-22 was in question. We are currently planning a 6th generation fighter. It will have better range, baked in stealth coatings and should be on an order of magnitude better due to what we have learned from the f-22 and f-35.

You have no clue what a 6th generation fighter will or won't have, including range. Moreover, a 6th generation fighter won't be used to replace the F-22, but instead to finally retire the F-15s that Gates and company failed to replace by cutting the F-22. It only be billions more and decades later though, and the Chinese decades ahead of schedule so thats nice.

[zero-one]

Got me thinking,

If we had more Raptors, maybe we wouldn't be rushing to get to 6th gen as much. China has how many J-20s? Russia has around 12 Su-57.

I won't be surprised if by 2030 they would still have just around 100+ of either units going against 350 F-22s and some 700 F-35s. 6th gen can wait.

[scudbuster]

USAF has only 186 operational F-22's.

[SpudmanWP]

I think he was postulating IF the F-22 had continued production to the minimum 350.

[disconnectedradical]

6th gen can wait.

Why? More F-22 won't change how fast A2AD develop or how fast Russia and China make countermeasures. In the 2030s and 2040s the answer isn't going to be F-22.

[wrightwing]

6th gen can wait.

Why? More F-22 won't change how fast A2AD develop or how fast Russia and China make countermeasures. In the 2030s and 2040s the answer isn't going to be F-22.

F-22 programmable architecture and systems growth capacity will more than likely be highly capable in the 2030s.

2040 is about where whatever few airframes are left should be finished with their service life.

Russia might not even be a Federation anymore by then.

China's internal economic and political challenges will likely have gone through major escalation and collapse, just like every previous cycle in Chinese history, while being checked by a rising Japan and other Asian ring nations like Vietnam.

Meanwhile, the US Military Industrial Engineering and Innovation giant will be thinking about and preparing for the future, while 6th Gen and 5th Gen + assets continue to maintain a qualitative and quantitative edge over any other world power.

The F-22 won't be close to being out of airframe life in 2040. It won't need a SLEP until 2060. It may well be retired before it runs out of airframe life, depending on when the next generation fighter starts entering service.

[zero-one]

USAF has only 186 operational F-22's.

Thats why I said If we had more. IF they bought the original 350+ air-frames before Gates cut the line