YF-22 vs YF-23

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quicksilver

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Unread post16 Feb 2021, 20:06

Many here speak as if ‘politics’ don’t count. News flash...
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zero-one

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Unread post21 Feb 2021, 09:24

Just noticed that Eric Able said the YF-23 and 22 never had identical test points which made it very hard to make an apples to apples comparison.

I think this perfectly explains why in Paul Metz's own charts, the YF-23 had a faster supercruise speed while the YF-22 had a faster top speed. I think the supercruise test was taken in conditions that favored the 23 while the top speed test favored the 22.

Not trying to argue which is better anymore, as I agree with engr. Rick Able at this point, both had ther advantages over the other and that he couldn't care less who won, the USAF would get a winner, so the decision came down to who can manage the program better, and at that point they though it was Lockheed.

Unlike the TFX program where he said that the Boeing proponent was clearly better.
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jetblast16

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Unread post17 Jun 2021, 03:52

Have F110, Block 70, will travel
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mixelflick

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Unread post17 Jun 2021, 14:36

Damn, still looks futuristic even today

And its size/power is awe inspiring. Very Foxhound'ish IMO, but even more demonic looking. And not just because of the black paint job!
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bonplan

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Unread post17 Jun 2021, 16:35

zero-one wrote:Just noticed that Eric Able said the YF-23 and 22 never had identical test points which made it very hard to make an apples to apples comparison.

I think this perfectly explains why in Paul Metz's own charts, the YF-23 had a faster supercruise speed while the YF-22 had a faster top speed. I think the supercruise test was taken in conditions that favored the 23 while the top speed test favored the 22.

Not trying to argue which is better anymore, as I agree with engr. Rick Able at this point, both had ther advantages over the other and that he couldn't care less who won, the USAF would get a winner, so the decision came down to who can manage the program better, and at that point they though it was Lockheed.

Unlike the TFX program where he said that the Boeing proponent was clearly better.

The internal fuel capacity wasn't better in YF23 design? Today the sole weakness of F22 in air to air mission is the range....
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alloycowboy

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Unread post17 Jun 2021, 23:37

bonplan wrote:
zero-one wrote:Just noticed that Eric Able said the YF-23 and 22 never had identical test points which made it very hard to make an apples to apples comparison.

I think this perfectly explains why in Paul Metz's own charts, the YF-23 had a faster supercruise speed while the YF-22 had a faster top speed. I think the supercruise test was taken in conditions that favored the 23 while the top speed test favored the 22.

Not trying to argue which is better anymore, as I agree with engr. Rick Able at this point, both had ther advantages over the other and that he couldn't care less who won, the USAF would get a winner, so the decision came down to who can manage the program better, and at that point they though it was Lockheed.

Unlike the TFX program where he said that the Boeing proponent was clearly better.

The internal fuel capacity wasn't better in YF23 design? Today the sole weakness of F22 in air to air mission is the range....


You are looking at the YF-22 & YF-23 from a strictly performance point of of view. You also need to look at which aircraft would have been the easiest to manufacter to and maintain. From an aesthetics point of view the YF-23 was a really pretty aircraft, but like all beauty queens she would have been a real bitch to build and maitain, a real hanger queen.
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Fox1

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Unread post18 Jun 2021, 22:49

It is a real shame we had to choose one or the other. If funding hadn't been a barrier, I would have loved to see both platforms fielded. The F-22 would have been perfectly suited for fighting WWIII on the plains of Europe. And the F-23 would have made a damn fine interceptor and long range fighter for the Pacific.
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Unread post19 Jun 2021, 11:33

bonplan wrote:The internal fuel capacity wasn't better in YF23 design? Today the sole weakness of F22 in air to air mission is the range....


That is false statement. The F-22 internally holds as much fuel as an Eagle with two bags, and I never hear or read comments about the Eagle being a short range aircraft. Matter the fact F-22 pilots I have spoken to at open house events say they can squeeze more range out of the F-22 than what the specifications say.
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sferrin

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Unread post19 Jun 2021, 15:20

charlielima223 wrote:
bonplan wrote:The internal fuel capacity wasn't better in YF23 design? Today the sole weakness of F22 in air to air mission is the range....


That is false statement. The F-22 internally holds as much fuel as an Eagle with two bags,


Well that's not true. Internal fuel - F-22: 18,000lbs. F-15C: 14,000lbs.
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Unread post20 Jun 2021, 16:48

sferrin wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:
bonplan wrote:The internal fuel capacity wasn't better in YF23 design? Today the sole weakness of F22 in air to air mission is the range....


That is false statement. The F-22 internally holds as much fuel as an Eagle with two bags,


Well that's not true. Internal fuel - F-22: 18,000lbs. F-15C: 14,000lbs.


I've only seen F-15C listed more like 13,800 pounds. The F-15A was 11,100 pounds. Some sources list 11,600 pounds for the latter. Either way, F-15A sure qualifies consideration in his claim. He's only off by about 1,000 pounds with that statement.
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sferrin

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Unread post20 Jun 2021, 18:17

madrat wrote:
sferrin wrote:
charlielima223 wrote:That is false statement. The F-22 internally holds as much fuel as an Eagle with two bags,


Well that's not true. Internal fuel - F-22: 18,000lbs. F-15C: 14,000lbs.


I've only seen F-15C listed more like 13,800 pounds. The F-15A was 11,100 pounds. Some sources list 11,600 pounds for the latter. Either way, F-15A sure qualifies consideration in his claim. He's only off by about 1,000 pounds with that statement.


Only in the most favorable case, for the F-15A. In the most likely case it's not even close. An F-15C plus 1220 gallons is more like 21,400. That is to say the F-22 falls far short of the typical F-15 with "two bags".

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charlielima223

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Unread post21 Jun 2021, 20:57

sferrin wrote:
Only in the most favorable case, for the F-15A. In the most likely case it's not even close. An F-15C plus 1220 gallons is more like 21,400. That is to say the F-22 falls far short of the typical F-15 with "two bags".


I didnt think we were being that nit-picky. The FPPC F-22 ep, the guest speaker "Stretch" did say the F-22 was comparable to his old F-15 with 2 EFTs. F-22 pilots do say they dont have to top off as much as their 4th gen counterparts. My original statement was the reference to a statement by bonplan that the F-22 doesnt have good enough range.

With 3495lbs less fuel than an F-15C with two bags (did the simple math 21495lbs of JP-8), does the F-22 lack in range an endurance?
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eagle3000

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Unread post21 Jun 2021, 21:38

The F-22 lacks in range compared to the original requirement, wich the F-22 does not meet.
LM made the famous statement "range, speed, manoeuvrability - pick two" and the USAF being the USAF choose speed and manoeuvrability.
Keep in mind the original requirement was for the European theatre. So range would always be insufficient for the Pacific theatre.

Comparing fuel alone is rather pointless.
Fuel fraction is more significant.
F-15C: 13450 lbs of fuel vs. lets say 30000 empty weight --> 0.45
F-22: 18000 fuel, 43300 empty weight --> 0.42

What helps the F-22 is its high cruising altitude.
On the other hand the bags help the F-15.
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madrat

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Unread post21 Jun 2021, 21:46

Clean F-22A wins in your comparison, no contest at all.
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Unread post24 Jun 2021, 14:40

I always assumed the F-22 would have superior range to an F-15C, just a question of how much. If I'm not mistaken, the YF-22A's range/internal fuel volume was scaled back when finalizing the F-22A.

Still, for the F-22 to have approx the same range as F-15C with 2 bags.... mighty impresssive IMO. Especially given the amount of electronics/avionics etc. it needs to carry to a (higher) altitude. Those motors really are something else...
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