F-22 vs. Rafale dogfight

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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by charlielima223 » 19 May 2020, 02:26

My :2c: and then some...

I dont believe this particular scenario was meant to see which aircraft was better (though in the interwebs it will always go that way). There is enough phallic measuring "debates" on the interwebs about various military platforms and systems to give someone a life time of entertainment. I think the comments of the former

French pilot added more light and a very interesting perspective. I find it interesting how he was pointing out that the pilot of the F-22 made reversals putting the Rafale in a better position. It could be the pilot was still new but personally I doubt.
Just go with me for a bit. I am reminded about a book I read about the 4477th TES. They would first fly a series of manuevers allowing a blue air pilot to observe how a Mig-21 performs. Then they would fly another series of manuevers with the blue air pilot letting them experience first hand how their aircraft performs in certain envelopes compared to their aircraft. Finally there was a DACM sortie allowing the blue air pilot to fight against their jets. They wouldnt make it easy but they still would allow the blue air some victories so that they can apply what they observed and experienced.
The Mig-21 is doing this and that. Make your F-15/F-16/F-4 do this and that in order to get into a more suitable position for guns or sidewinder shot.

Or atleast that is how I interpreted it.

I think that is what this F-22 "vs" Rafale encounter was. How often does a Rafale pilot get a chance to fly with a Raptor or an aircraft with similar performance? I dont think it was a gloves off, no holds bar, may the better pilot win type of dogfight... there are other training flights and exercises that can do that.


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by gta4 » 19 May 2020, 06:59

deathangel wrote:Your French has issues..

The text says: "US officials reluctantly acknowledged the rafale was hard to contain and that in the 6 simulated fights 5 ended neutral and one ended with the rafale striking a shot (on the F22)



You are a terrible liar.

You are twisting the words into another direction.

You think no one speaks French here so you can post whatever you want?

The original phrase:

"un coup au but pour le Raptor"

The raptor scored once, not the rafale.

And, at 12:42, in his own words: "one was won by the raptor"


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by gta4 » 19 May 2020, 16:05

A closer look to this liar:

deathangel the liar.png


There are lots of french speakers in this forum and they can confirm my translation.


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by deathangel » 19 May 2020, 21:02

gta4 wrote:A closer look to this liar:

deathangel the liar.png


There are lots of french speakers in this forum and they can confirm my translation.


gta4 wrote:
deathangel wrote:Your French has issues..

The text says: "US officials reluctantly acknowledged the rafale was hard to contain and that in the 6 simulated fights 5 ended neutral and one ended with the rafale striking a shot (on the F22)



You are a terrible liar.

You are twisting the words into another direction.

You think no one speaks French here so you can post whatever you want?

The original phrase:

"un coup au but pour le Raptor"

The raptor scored once, not the rafale.

And, at 12:42, in his own words: "one was won by the raptor"



Big spank deserved on this one, effectively I read Ra.... interpreted Rafale when it was raptor.

So I Double checked for the rest (learning from mistakes is the way to go ) of your quotes and reheard cautiously what the pilot actually explained and pffiou what a relief looks like I understood well.

But prove me wrong and that you didn't lied by omission almost all way long.


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by deathangel » 19 May 2020, 22:14

XanderCrews wrote:
deathangel wrote:
Well if your mum is Kelly Anne Conway I understand that you are in alternative facts and such but such bad faith......life have must been hard on you..

By the way it's not a reproach, it's just an observation


If we are just going to say that whatever the pilots say is written in stone the F-22 will always win, we have far more comments about the F-22s overwhelming superiority than the Rafale. so one observation might be that for every Rafale remark we have about 100 F-22 comments. Meaning there's one set of facts, and another set of "alternate facts" and it doesn't bode well for the Rafale.


I'm ok with that and to go your way two things the pilot stated

-The pilot says this is an unlikely event (dogfight / guns only )
-Even if it happened, (let's say the F22 needed a visual ID) and it ended in a dogfight the F22 outnumbers the Rafales so the rafale would be wiped away by another F22 staying at a distance.

So in this particular and unlikely event the duo F22/pilot was bested by the Rafale/pilot duo not a big deal right ?

But then comes GTA4 in a finest Mafia Lawyer move deliberately omiting (or conveniently reversing: bareling defensively when the pilot says barreling to keep beeing offensive) whatever the pilot says when it goes against the F22 to prove his religion:
Rule 1: The F22 is always the best.
Rule 2: If not the case refer to rule 1

The F22 lost this particular and unlikely one, no need to storm the front Taliban style that was most my mood


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by deathangel » 19 May 2020, 22:17

charlielima223 wrote:My :2c: and then some...

I dont believe this particular scenario was meant to see which aircraft was better (though in the interwebs it will always go that way). There is enough phallic measuring "debates" on the interwebs about various military platforms and systems to give someone a life time of entertainment. I think the comments of the former

French pilot added more light and a very interesting perspective. I find it interesting how he was pointing out that the pilot of the F-22 made reversals putting the Rafale in a better position. It could be the pilot was still new but personally I doubt.
Just go with me for a bit. I am reminded about a book I read about the 4477th TES. They would first fly a series of manuevers allowing a blue air pilot to observe how a Mig-21 performs. Then they would fly another series of manuevers with the blue air pilot letting them experience first hand how their aircraft performs in certain envelopes compared to their aircraft. Finally there was a DACM sortie allowing the blue air pilot to fight against their jets. They wouldnt make it easy but they still would allow the blue air some victories so that they can apply what they observed and experienced.
The Mig-21 is doing this and that. Make your F-15/F-16/F-4 do this and that in order to get into a more suitable position for guns or sidewinder shot.

Or atleast that is how I interpreted it.

I think that is what this F-22 "vs" Rafale encounter was. How often does a Rafale pilot get a chance to fly with a Raptor or an aircraft with similar performance? I dont think it was a gloves off, no holds bar, may the better pilot win type of dogfight... there are other training flights and exercises that can do that.



That's indeed a possibility the french pilot stated, more explicitely in the french version of his video


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by deltasierracharlie » 24 Sep 2020, 01:06

"Mover" and "Gonky" talk about the F-22 vs Rafale HUD footage:



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by charlielima223 » 02 Oct 2020, 08:43

The pissing contest continues!
The video was entertaining! Thanks for the upload deltasierracharlie


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by notam123 » 30 Sep 2023, 14:13

When i ("H") sent this video to the website, i insisted on the last slide to be introduced. It states "Be careful : in no way this video demonstrates any superiority of Rafale over the F-22. We do not know the ROE neither what happened during the preceding seconds before the video.
But only (demonstrate) the ability of Rafale to maneuver in a flight domain similar to its contemporaries."


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by optimist » 30 Sep 2023, 15:28

This is like playing 'whac a mole'. How many of these f-22/rafale threads were there?
That looks like Rap , same height as the a. Raf , the f would have height and be above the a. So only a fanboy can see that p being a f


viewtopic.php?f=33&t=58054

Come on guys. It's a Guns only dogfight. Radar and IR works against the F-22 at very very very close range. Why is this a thing?

This French pilot gives a good account, even with the French bias. If nothing else, it can be used to shut the frog trolls up. The Rafale never got a gun kill.
He repeats numerous times. IT'S GUNS ONLY. (The F-22 takes the defensive and Rafale the aggressive position.)


1:50 Ate says the F-22 reverses its turn making it easy for the Rafale. which fires an IR , which cannot be claimed as it is guns only. (In actual fact, I think the F-22 was maneuvering to wash off speed to let the Rafale come within range for the dogfight.)
4:00 R calls Fox 2. (That really excited the fanboys) ..It's a practice shot, Ate said he called it out of habit and doesn't count as it is guns only.
5:00 Ate says he switches to guns.
6:00 Ate says about HMS and HOBS, The f-22 and Rafale doesn't ...(but just about everything else does.)
6:40 Ate says Rafale doesn't have the nose authority to follow the F-22. the f-22 can move.
9:00 Ate says the Rafale is at 80kts and below the 100kts minimum. :mrgreen: ( the Rafale stalled out and was sitting there like a duck.)

11:40 Ate says the F-22 outperforms the Rafale and closes the door. ( Of course it does.)
12:20 Ate says: "Not enough energy for the Rafale, missing a few kts"..... (The Rafale can't regain energy quickly. The F-22 most certainly can and is one of the few planes that can.)

12:40 The F-22 stops the fight and retreats. The Rafale is below the stall speed at 80 kts ( again. :mrgreen: the thing is a slug.)
14:00 Rafale continues and picks up speed, has a good position on the F-22, the Rafale does not trigger. (The F-22 has already called the fight and is just flying straight. :roll: )
17:30 Ate, repeat that the F-22 called the fight at 12:40 and why the F-22 did not maneuver.
Europe's fighters been decided. Not a Eurocanard, it's the F-35 (or insert derogatory term) Count the European countries with it.


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by viperzerof-2 » 30 Sep 2023, 22:16

The Rafale can operate at a speed of Mach 1.6 at an altitude of 15,200 m and at Mach 2 at 10,300 m. The take-off run and the landing run are approximately the same, i.e. 400 m. Thanks to its electric flight controls, its low approach speed - 190 km/h - and its residual vertical speed of 3 m/s, the landing precision is t25 m.
At low altitude, the aircraft can withstand accelerations of 9 G and display turn rates of 20°/s

Ploies de Rafale

Maritime Rafale gives max ITR (presumably sea level) as 30 degrees a second

Rebourg said that with a clean Rafale, using afterburner, you can enter a turn at 500 kt. and 10,000 ft., pull the maximum 9g and still accelerate. Cornering speed for the Rafale is 350 kt., he said. The Snecma M88-2 engines are in the 7.5-ton class for power, but for the export version of the Rafale, Dassault is considering installing 9.0-ton-class engines.

AWST

The MMCA give the max STR at 5000 feet with 100% full as 16 degrees per second. That’s less then the F-16E but equal to a 1984 F-16 block 15

My guess the Rafale has similar STR at low level to an F-16a (block 52 as well?) less then the “big engine” jets. The Rafale has excellent ITR (probably only equaled by the Gripen and J-10 among 4th gen) better slow speed maneuvering than a viper. Slightly higher AoA, maybe better nose pointing? Higher up its engines make less thrust than most viper engines.

Probably is formidable under the right circumstances. M88-3 might have been interesting. 90kn engine by upping mass flow to 73.4 kg/s
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