Pakistan Airforce F-16 blk 52+ order

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RoAF

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Unread post12 Jul 2006, 10:34

falcon fan wrote:
Looking at the package there is one thing I don't understand. The new block 50/52 planes are being priced at $40 million a piece. The PAF is getting its older fleet upgraded at $1.3 billion and reports that are available suggest these upgraded planes would still be less advanced than the new ones. Why then does the PAF not buy another squadron of the new planes at $ 720 million and use the rest of the money to buy the used F-16s to make up for numbers. This way they would have 54 of the block 50/52 and the total F-16s in the fleet would exceed 100. I can't understand why are they buying these less advanced planes.


The MLU upgrade is very close to the Block 52 capabilities. Basically only the structure, radar and engine are less advanced. PAF needs both good numbers and capabilities; they really have a gap (as of now) in terms of BVR. F-16 MLU is able to use AMRAAM (and JDAM), regular F-16 A/Bs are not.
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Arshad

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Unread post12 Jul 2006, 14:32

RoAF wrote:falcon fan wrote:
Looking at the package there is one thing I don't understand. The new block 50/52 planes are being priced at $40 million a piece. The PAF is getting its older fleet upgraded at $1.3 billion and reports that are available suggest these upgraded planes would still be less advanced than the new ones. Why then does the PAF not buy another squadron of the new planes at $ 720 million and use the rest of the money to buy the used F-16s to make up for numbers. This way they would have 54 of the block 50/52 and the total F-16s in the fleet would exceed 100. I can't understand why are they buying these less advanced planes.


The MLU upgrade is very close to the Block 52 capabilities. Basically only the structure, radar and engine are less advanced. PAF needs both good numbers and capabilities; they really have a gap (as of now) in terms of BVR. F-16 MLU is able to use AMRAAM (and JDAM), regular F-16 A/Bs are not.


The MLU is just a name for the upgrade for these planes...MLU doesn't specify a certain standard, for example the Dutch MLU doesn't need to be the same as the ones Pakistan is requesting. So basically they can be made as advanced as the block 50/52. If you look at the order you can see that they have requested mostly the same 'layout' as their wanted block 50/52 in terms of radar (APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar) and JHMCS etc.
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Iron_Eagle

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Unread post12 Jul 2006, 15:21

I wonder if Pakistan is going to come up with a new paint scheme for their Blcok 50s or just stick to the A/B paint scheme.
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RoAF

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Unread post12 Jul 2006, 21:41

Most likely they'll stick with the existing one. Their new Chinese-made F-7PGs have the same scheme.
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Asif

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Unread post13 Jul 2006, 22:45

Seems like Rep. Tom Lantos of California has asked for the sale to be withdrawn. Siting China may get its hands on F-16 Technology. Also noted is that this Democrat is a supporter of India as stated in the below article.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... e=politics

But not noted in the Washington Post report

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 00782.html
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MarkSien

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Unread post13 Jul 2006, 23:34

Heard that Congress' hearing on the F-16 deal has been postponned indefinitely; the only way this deal will be blocked is if the Bush administration decides to block it.
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falcon_fan

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Unread post14 Jul 2006, 09:00

Thanks for the knowledgeable info everyone. I agree with Mark Sien that the deal is going to go ahead absolutely. Congress has always had lobbys but the degree of their influence in this particular case is likely to be minor at best. The administartion does not want a major manufacturing plant going out of business in 2008. The Falcon has surely (been) landed for Pakistan.
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blain2

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Unread post16 Jul 2006, 01:38

Asif wrote:Seems like Rep. Tom Lantos of California has asked for the sale to be withdrawn. Siting China may get its hands on F-16 Technology. Also noted is that this Democrat is a supporter of India as stated in the below article.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... e=politics

But not noted in the Washington Post report

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 00782.html


It will go through without a doubt. The state department has come out in favor of this deal even after lantos showed reservations stating that discussions around the transfar of technology issues have been going for the past 14 months and they have assurances from Pakistan on this.
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blain2

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Unread post16 Jul 2006, 01:41

Arshad wrote:
RoAF wrote:falcon fan wrote:
Looking at the package there is one thing I don't understand. The new block 50/52 planes are being priced at $40 million a piece. The PAF is getting its older fleet upgraded at $1.3 billion and reports that are available suggest these upgraded planes would still be less advanced than the new ones. Why then does the PAF not buy another squadron of the new planes at $ 720 million and use the rest of the money to buy the used F-16s to make up for numbers. This way they would have 54 of the block 50/52 and the total F-16s in the fleet would exceed 100. I can't understand why are they buying these less advanced planes.


The MLU upgrade is very close to the Block 52 capabilities. Basically only the structure, radar and engine are less advanced. PAF needs both good numbers and capabilities; they really have a gap (as of now) in terms of BVR. F-16 MLU is able to use AMRAAM (and JDAM), regular F-16 A/Bs are not.


The MLU is just a name for the upgrade for these planes...MLU doesn't specify a certain standard, for example the Dutch MLU doesn't need to be the same as the ones Pakistan is requesting. So basically they can be made as advanced as the block 50/52. If you look at the order you can see that they have requested mostly the same 'layout' as their wanted block 50/52 in terms of radar (APG-68(V)9 with Synthetic Aperture Radar or the APG-66(V)2 radar) and JHMCS etc.


Arshad the point being made is not in regards to the term "MLU" but whats been requested in the Pakistani MLU request. Based on that, the MLU package seems very much like MLU tape M3 with AIM-120-C5, JHMCS, Link 16 etc. integrated to the older F-16s. Afaik, Pakistani blk 15s will not be JDAM capable however they are JSOW capable and already have these munitions on hand (delivered via the EDA clause of the MNNA).
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MarkSien

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Unread post18 Jul 2006, 10:20

Seems the 26 used F-16s the PAF is getting are in fact the Peace Gate III/IV aircraft; Link


He said the US government has agreed to hand over 28 F-16s to Pakistan which were manufactured for Pakistan in 1990s and Pakistan had paid $650 million in advance for these planes, but the US had withheld their delivery imposing sanctions on Pakistan.

He said it was a great diplomatic victory for Pakistan that despite paying back the $650 million advance money, the United States has now agreed to give delivery of these 28 F-16s to PAF at a nominal price after up-gradation of their operational capability.

"Two of these F-16s have already arrived in Pakistan and the rest 26 will join the PAF fleet in about 15 to 18 months", he happily announced.
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Unread post19 Jul 2006, 05:28

I read a report in a different newspaper (can't find the link to it) that the older planes are not exactly the same planes manufactured for Pakistan but are the ones being decomissioned by the USAF with the same specs and configuration. These planes are being sold to Pakistan for less than a million bucks a piece, almost scrap price. Man, at this price PAF could buy 50 of those. But then I think the reduced quantity of the new planes suggest PAF is now saving resources for a fourth generation fighter to spearhead the airforce. Viper will be the backbone along with the JF-17.
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Meathook

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Unread post25 Jul 2006, 16:28

With Pakistan making noise that they can make up to 50 Nuclear grade weapons, why are they still being sold aircraft...amazing how this gets screwed around the handle with foreign policy...makes no sense to me
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falcon_fan

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Unread post26 Jul 2006, 06:04

Meathook wrote:With Pakistan making noise that they can make up to 50 Nuclear grade weapons, why are they still being sold aircraft...amazing how this gets screwed around the handle with foreign policy...makes no sense to me
Well for starters, its not that Pakistan "can make upto 50 nuclear weapons", it already has over 50 nuclear weapons and an officially declared nuclear power. Second, the state department has made it clear that the planes being sold are not nuclear capable as per the agreed terms. Besides, with its rather wide array of ballistic missiles, Pakistan really is in no need of a delivery system. Some reports have also suggested that the JF-17 being developed also has a nuclear capable variant. Lastly, the planes being offered to Pakistan is a very small deal as compared to the US nuclear technology now being sold to India. The planes seem to be a sort of balancing act by the administration but clearly the balance is still in India's favor.
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Unread post26 Jul 2006, 12:53

Good points and I knew many of them and more as part of my job but sometimes....I wonder how the "game" will play out in the long run and why the game rules change so often...international politics still confuse and amaze me at the same time....thanks for your thoughts on the subject
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blain2

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Unread post27 Jul 2006, 05:47

I think F-16 as a nuclear delivery vehicle is blown way out of context in terms of Pakistan. There was a time in the early 90s when the F-16s in the PAF service were considered to be strategic assets (as they were the only ones capable of long range nuclear strike (one way mission though)). With the active IRBM program and the fact that Mirage IIIs and even older Chinese Nanchang A-5s are capable of tactical nuclear strikes, the F-16's ability to carry a nuclear payload is a moot point now.

Lastly, I must point out that Pakistan did not make any noise about making 50 or any number of nuclear weapons recently at least...they like to remain as quite about this stuff as possible, however with the Indian nuclear deal being reviewed by congress, Anti-proliferation folks have raised this as a concern simply due to the fact that after the US-India deal, other nuclear powers in the region (China and Pakistan) will also ramp up their nuclear fissile production.
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