Turkish F-16 downs Russian Su-24 violating airspace

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botsing

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Unread post22 Dec 2015, 16:24

retchief70 wrote:Just a couple quick comments:
1. Marco9, you get paid in rubles or some other currency?
2. Tomcooper, you are spot on with your comments, and I couldn't agree with you more, but you're never going to have any effect on some of these toads. This thread has gotten way off line. Let it die. Frankly I'm kinda surprised the mods have let it go on this long. Most posts other than yours and a few others are repeats of the same trash.

I totally agree with this post, thank you for voicing this retchief70 and thank you Tom Cooper for explaining the more inner workings of this conflict.
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marco9

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Unread post22 Dec 2015, 16:51

botsing wrote:
retchief70 wrote:Just a couple quick comments:
1. Marco9, you get paid in rubles or some other currency?
2. Tomcooper, you are spot on with your comments, and I couldn't agree with you more, but you're never going to have any effect on some of these toads. This thread has gotten way off line. Let it die. Frankly I'm kinda surprised the mods have let it go on this long. Most posts other than yours and a few others are repeats of the same trash.

I totally agree with this post, thank you for voicing this retchief70 and thank you Tom Cooper for explaining the more inner workings of this conflict.


Seriously? it's not me the Russian cheerleader, rather this Tomcooper the American one...

I said since the beginning:


marco9 wrote:
tomcooper wrote:Nobody said the Sukhoi 'did wrong' when designing the Su-24. Back in its times, say late-1970s to mid-1980s....


I agree with this assessment of the Russian fighting doctrine and hardware capability, I posted something very similar over themess.net back in October; I will say based on pictures, those Su-30SM do not even fly with R-27ER, but rather with the shorter legged R-27R which makes me wonder whether even the extended range version has been fielded in numbers.

There is one only thing that I feel to say after all this bashing against the Russian forces:
Western forces are scoring poorly... utterly and shamefully poorly regardless the fact they are using tactics that are wildly recognized to be "more advanced" and shaped by years of deployments and golden plated jets, ammo and targeting pods.

marco9 wrote:Putin is an authoritarian bastard and Erdogan a crazy cow.


But my point in underling how equally ineffective the West is at war, sparkled this whole thing.

This guy comes here as the expert and he is not aware of the the most basic statistics of this war and starts pontificating about how wonderful the US military is:

marco9 wrote:
tomcooper wrote:...sorry: now it's me who would like to see the source for such figures.

Namely, when I count all the PGMs spent by the CENTCOM-controlled air forces, plus all the dumb bombs, and then add all the unguided rockets and cannon shells fired by Iraqis, I might get such number for ammo expenditure. But, I really see no way the USA and allies have spent 20-25K PGMs 'only' in Iraq and Syria the last 14 months.


you're welcome
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/02/world ... oing-what/
http://edition.cnn.com/2015/12/04/polit ... =obnetwork

...and that's CNN...


The fact is... US armed forces at war in XXI century... suck! as a matter of fact, at the end of the day, they suck! as much as the Russians with the only difference of the amount of money they spend (both way way too much for the result they get).

And this guy, our expert…
tomcooper wrote:'Lying'? What's new about that? ... find yourself some good history book...
Next on igno list.

when in the corner about how a US strategic aviation asset, under an official DoD statement came off course “closer than planned” and I underline it… he simply switches the coin and turns to a “of course they lied (‘cause mambo jango bamboo bumba rumba Western equipment cannot fail, as opposed to the ruskies)” Yeah… explain that to the F-22s on their first deployment to Japan…

I cannot stand double standards. As simple as that.


Finally, as I said already...

marco9 wrote:...
As I said neither Russia nor US are ready for this fight ... showing all their inability in fighting a xxi century enemy. Just back off. Let them fight, hire proxies but quit being ridiculous and making holes in the sand.


Who's the cheerleader of whom here?
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piston

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Unread post22 Dec 2015, 19:14

marco9 wrote:Oh, please elaborate the astonishing American victories since then?
Vietnam shame? Somalian fiasco? Iraq gone half to IS and half to Iran?, Afghanistan endless war? Libyan chaos? maybe the Korean stalemate? ah no... you are talking about the shiny republics of Grenada and Panama! ah... and the nasty country of Serbia ...cool results for the trillions of dollars that were spent...



This is a complete of topic, please stop... :( :(
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Unread post22 Dec 2015, 19:32

piston wrote:
marco9 wrote:Oh, please elaborate the astonishing American victories since then?
Vietnam shame? Somalian fiasco? Iraq gone half to IS and half to Iran?, Afghanistan endless war? Libyan chaos? maybe the Korean stalemate? ah no... you are talking about the shiny republics of Grenada and Panama! ah... and the nasty country of Serbia ...cool results for the trillions of dollars that were spent...



This is a complete of topic, please stop... :( :(


Still we came to this point following a legitimate path.
To be back on topic firing at a crossing jet at medium altitude, low speed simply should never happen. By this logic hundreds of jets should be shot down over the years.
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Unread post22 Dec 2015, 19:59

Interesting pics.
There is no end to what kind of missiles that can be added into the S-300/400 systems.
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tomcooper

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Unread post22 Dec 2015, 20:40

I've put all the heroes above on 'igno', so can't read their messages. But, from ^^this series^^ of - probably heated - babbling, I gauge Russo-trolls are very mad now? :D

It's always silly how any kind of attempt to discuss this topic in anything like professional manner with them, is rapidly degenerated (by all of them) into a pissing contest. And when one starts ignoring them because of sheer nonsense they're posting, then one is 'running away'.... :mrgreen:

Rules of Engagement?
'But, it was an ambush and stab in the back by Ottoman Sultan...'

Reckless behaviour of Russian commanders and their pilots?
'But it's so that Americans...'

'Deployment of equipment unsuitable for scenario on hand?'
'But you're biased and anti-Russian...'

'How comes a Wunderwaffe Su-24 gets "no warning" about an airborne AIM-120?'
'But you're a liberal neo-con...'

'Why do they need to inspect that black-box, there was another Su-24 in the same pair, they can reveal what is its black-box telling?'
'But you're a Jihadist-Supporter...'

...etc., etc., etc., and so all the way down to:

'Russians purposely bombing civilians because they can't hit anybody else (but also in order to de-populate areas controlled by insurgents, whis is their standard COIN tactics since decades)...'
'But Americans hit that MSF hospital...'

Nah, if nothing else, then it must be so that Americans are inept, because they - and their allies - have really spent 25K PGMs (can confirm this, meanwhile) to kill what they think was about 5,000 Daesh...while, curiously, this ex-Daesh intel bloke cites as many killed Daesh in Battle for Ayn al-Arab/Kobane alone... but nah, this is irrelevant for Russo-trolls of course, then who should care about US support also stopping Daesh advance on Baghdad, enabling the ISF to recover Tikrit (after the IRGC miserably failed there), and to launch an all-out offensive on Ramadi...?

After all, this is 'nothing' in comparison to the fact that Russians have (according to data released by their own MOD, but about which our Russo-trolls simply do not care), meanwhile deployed about 20,000 'dumb' bombs - in order to kill about 200 Syrian insurgents and massacre at least 600 Syrian civilians. While except for an IRGC advance into southern Aleppo, Assadists got exactly nowhere...

...and one is left to wonder how much effect would these 20,000 Russian bombs have if dropped on the Daesh...

Now, let me add a little bit oil to this fire, because it's getting even funnier. Namely, Novaya Gazata - the last (semi-)free media source in Russia - has published a very interesting feature, today (in Russian): Operation in Syria revealed problems with the long-range aircraft missiles.

Contrary to usual practices of RT and other of Putler's cohorts, the same source was fair enough to publish a prompt denial from the MOD in Moscow too: Defense Ministry denied the existence of problems with cruise missiles in Syria.

Nevertheless, a carefull observer cannot but conclude that it is so that after a period of VKS launching CACLM-attacks on every second day (6, 8, 10, and 12 December, for example), Russians completely stopped such operations.

How comes, if there are no problems...?

Now, hand at heart: this is their first-ever operation of this kind (CALCM-attacks). It's not only that their manufacturing quality (especially in case of high-tech weapons), and quality management (in general) were always quite questionable: but they've neither got any kind of serious experiences in use of CALCMs, nor really good targeting intel in Syria. Moreover, considering their Kh-555s and Kh-101 began hitting Assadist positions (causing about 50 fatalities), instead of Syrian civilians or (at least) Syrian insurgents...

Bottom line: it's perfectly sensible to impose a temporary stop on such ops...

But nah, this is 'simply impossible' - and now I guess I'll be called even more names, alone for mentioning this. Well, I've been called a lot already, so perhaps I can hope for Russo-trolls to add at least something new to that list. Let me know if they do. :mrgreen:
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botsing

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Unread post22 Dec 2015, 21:22

marco9 wrote:Still we came to this point following a legitimate path.
To be back on topic firing at a crossing jet at medium altitude, low speed simply should never happen. By this logic hundreds of jets should be shot down over the years.

You are mixing up cause and justification.

We want to know the cause of this incident and then each can make up for themselves if that is justified or not. By adding your own moral politics to this incident you are just cluttering this topic and are causing it to derail.
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Unread post22 Dec 2015, 22:15

There is politics involved in ROE as well.
US said this was the wrong thing to do.
Remember that retired US NORAD commander statement.

Atleast he knows the proper way around ROE, but i guess you will now say his an retired old weirdo, with snow on his boots or something riddicules..
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Unread post22 Dec 2015, 22:52

borg wrote:There is politics involved in ROE as well.
US said this was the wrong thing to do.
Remember that retired US NORAD commander statement.

Atleast he knows the proper way around ROE, but i guess you will now say his an retired old weirdo, with snow on his boots or something riddicules..


Every country have their own ROE. It is up to them to define it. It don't matter what a NORAD commander have to say. Turkey have told Russia what it is and if they don't listen to it that is their problem.
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Unread post22 Dec 2015, 22:59

skyward wrote:
borg wrote:There is politics involved in ROE as well.
US said this was the wrong thing to do.
Remember that retired US NORAD commander statement.

Atleast he knows the proper way around ROE, but i guess you will now say his an retired old weirdo, with snow on his boots or something riddicules..


Every country have their own ROE. It is up to them to define it. It don't matter what a NORAD commander have to say. Turkey have told Russia what it is and if they don't listen to it that is their problem.


Told what exactly?

They did not say they will shot down any Russian jets prior to this.
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botsing

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Unread post22 Dec 2015, 23:56

borg wrote:They did not say they will shot down any Russian jets prior to this.

Then what did they say?
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Unread post23 Dec 2015, 01:06

Beware the Russian fanboys... No real new info, just the same BS regurgitated. Unofficially, and sometimes officially part of Putin's propaganda machine. Best way to deal with them is just don't reply. You're not going to sway their viewpoints because that's not what they are about. This is my last post on this thread.
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Unread post23 Dec 2015, 01:19

tomcooper wrote:'Why do they need to inspect that black-box, there was another Su-24 in the same pair, they can reveal what is its black-box telling?'
'But you're a Jihadist-Supporter...'

I love the fact that the black-box being broken, the absurd way that it did, is disputed even in Russian internet, e.g. here, some quite salty comments here, etc. But magically all of our "Average Russian people just taking random interest in western aviation forums"™ never ever doubt the official agenda :roll:

Looking at the pictures or the source video from the first link, it is clear that the box itself is relatively intact, as are the circuit-boards, yet the chips are somehow broken. That also means that there was no penetration, so the chips must have snapped under their own weight or being broken by something inside the box. Furthermore, when they showed the outer box itself, there were no broken-away chip parts just some white isolation, etc... geee, i wonder.

From the pictures, I particularly like this one :D
Image
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borg

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Unread post23 Dec 2015, 01:59

retchief70 wrote:Hey Guys, beware the Russian fanboys. . . specifically borg, marco9, and others. Go back and read the posts. No real new info, just the same BS regurgitated. Unofficially, and sometimes officially part of Putin's propaganda machine. Best way to deal with them is just don't reply. You're not going to sway their viewpoints because that's not what they are about. This is my last post on this thread.


Nonsens.
How can this possible be Russian Fanboy stuff..?

http://edition.cnn.com/videos/world/201 ... on-wrn.cnn

This is coming from Wesly Clarke and you guys want to throw it back at us, like its all part of some big Putin progaganda campaign!? :bang:

Can't you see the absurness of it all.
Just because US and its ally did some bad choices back then, it somehow magicaly makes it Russian and Putin wrong doing?
Oh pls snap out of it.

Russia was broken and out of the game back then, so i suggest you go and find some other scapegoats.
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Unread post23 Dec 2015, 09:06

botsing wrote:We want to know the cause of this incident and then each can make up for themselves if that is justified or not. By adding your own moral politics to this incident you are just cluttering this topic and are causing it to derail.

To understand the reasons for this shot-down, one really must look back through the last 20-30 years of Turco-Syrian relations.

For much of that time, Assadists were supporting the PKK - a Kurdish terrorist group (considered terrorist by all of the NATO) - that was attempting to de-stabilize Turkey. Furthermore, on 21 October 1989, and on direct order from Hafez al-Assad, two Syrian MiG-21s flew 20km deep into Turkish airspace and shot down a civilian Britten-Norman BN.2L light transport of the provincial Land Registry Directorate, killing all five on board.

Then add all the 30-40 Assadist violations of Turkish airspace in the last four years; add artillery shelling of border villages inside Turkey that killed at least five Turkish civilians inside their homes; add Assadists firing ballistic missiles (including SS-1c Scud-Bs and various Iranian models) into Turkey, causing more damage; add not only Russian Su-30SMs but also Assadist MiG-29s locking-on their radars on THK F-16s flying inside Turkish airspace, in early October, etc.; and... well, it's little surprising Erdo made lots of fus about this, even used such reckless behaviour of Assadists for election purposes.

Bottom line: it's entirely unsurprising the Turkish ROEs are as strict as to dictate a retaliation 'even' against aircraft that make 'shallow' penetrations of Turkish airspace. Since these ROEs do not demand a VID (which is perfectly understandable considering capabilities of modern-day aircraft and their weapons), and because two unknown aircraft have violated their airspace and began deploying weapons while doing so, Turks have opened fire.

While doing that, the Turks have actually applied the same ROEs that are valid for such cases in all of the NATO too: instead of spilling crocodille tears over half the internet, Russo-trolls could go and ask any active NATO pilot and he's going to confirm this.

Few days after the shoot-down of the Russian Su-24, Erdogan has signalled Turks wouldn't have opened fire if they knew the aircraft were Russian, but this is entirely ignored. Exactly like it is ignored that it's Russians to blame for not sticking to agreements from 15 October, for ignoring no less but 37 warnings from Turkish government published between 7 October and 20 November this year, and for ignoring 10 warnings issued on two guard/hotline frequencies on 24 November - in turn creating a situation where Turks were left without the choice but to conclude that what were Russian aircraft were Assadists, and open fire.

Opinions by some 'retired US commanders' are irrelevant. Not only that Americans generally do not know about the history of Assadist violations of Turkish airspace (which is no surprise: back in 1991, another US general claimed that Iraqi air force was trained by Pakistanis, which was hogwash; there were large groups of Indian AF instructors in Iraq, from late 1950s until late 1980s, but never any Pakistanis). Argumenting that way is like if somebody would now come to the idea to argument that Sarah Palin would've been the first to open fire if there were two unknown aircraft dropping bombs while violating US airspace over Alaska (and, hand at heart: she would be). Fact is that she's no authority to issue any orders to the USAF or USN, and her opinion is therefore irrelevant.

gideonic wrote:I love the fact that the black-box being broken, the absurd way that it did, is disputed even in Russian internet, e.g. here, some quite salty comments here, etc. But magically all of our "Average Russian people just taking random interest in western aviation forums"™ never ever doubt the official agenda :roll:
I'll not even enter discussion about 'how comes this black box is broken': it's an entirely silly exercise, attempting to drag attention away from cold facts. All Russians have to do is to publish protocol of that meeting in Ankara, on 15 October: but, they are never going to do so, because that would reveal that they have screwed up by not respecting agreements.

This became obvious already on 24 November, when Putin said there was never any kind of military cooperation with Turkey, while at the same time Russian MOD announced (via RT), that it has, 'cancelled military cooperation with Turkey'. Why cancell this 'cooperation' (i.e. exchange of information about operations close to the border), if there was never any?

Or the other way around: if there was 'only' such exchange of information with USA, but none with Turkey, as Putin said later (contradicting himself and the RT), it must've been clear that the CENTCOM would keep the THK informed about any Russian ops close to Turkish border - precisely with intention of de-escalating the situation. Conclusion: Russians failed to inform even Americans about their flight up to the Turkish border - which in turn means they (Russians) have created a situation where Turks concluded Russian aircraft would be Assadists, prompting the THK to open fire.

Bottom line: whichever way one turns it, it's Russians to blame. Can't help it.
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