Turkish F-16 downs Russian Su-24 violating airspace

[saintwarrior]

The groups that CIA and Saudi's gave money and weapons to, was only fighting Assad

This is not true. Syrian opposition (except Nusra front which is completely another story) and ISIS are the bitterest enemies as ISIS declares them as "takfirs" - those muslims who are interpreting Islam in the "wrong way" and don't recognize their Khalif Baghdadi. All opposition fighters that were captured by ISIS were beheaded like christians and all other "infidels".

Nusra is hostile both to ISIS (except Aleppo premises) and other opposition groups as they are basically acting in the interests of Al Quaeda.

U.S. assistance was provided only for FSA forces.

[Robust]

1-Get your facts straight. Turkish RF-4E was shot down in 2012 and it was 10 miles off the coast of Syrian coastlines(you know what it means coastlines right?) WITHOUT any warning. It is an act of war to shoot down someone's aircraft 10 miles from your coastlines without warning.

A state's territorial sea extends up to 12 nautical miles (22.2 km; 13.8 mi) from its coast. If Turkish RF-4E was shot down 10 miles (sea or land one ?) from the Syrian coast it was within Syrian territory.

The incident occured about 10 miles from a nearest Syrian coastline. Even if RF-4 was about 2 miles within Syrian territorial waters, there was no danger to anyone since RF-4 was flying over the Med.Sea and 10 miles from a nearest Syrian landmark, and most importantly, it was not armed. RF-4's mission was to fly in the area to test newly built Turkish gorund radar station in the region. The worst part, there was no warning from Syrians, it was shot down without any warning, two pilots did not even have time to eject. This kind of agression can only be justified in a war situations I guess.

So, the point of the matter if Syrian agression in this case is justified by Russians, or Syrians that RF-4 deserved to be shot down, then shooting down of all Syrian and Russian aircraft who "violated Turkish air space" should be more than legal and justified. At least, Turkey warns them before approaching their borders to change their course to avoid shoot down. Syrians did not even warn the TuRAF RF-4E, basically killed two pilots.

[snypa777]

The Russian ops tempo has always been "Moderate" as described by the US military, Russia has the capacity in theater for higher tempo Ops but the majority of air activity over Syria is US led coalition rather than Russian.

This has nothing to do with tempo of operations, Russians are not targeting ISIS on purpose. ISIS activity provides obivous benefits for them as I have mentioned in my previous post.

For example, have a look what is going on right now in a small town of Azaz - only FSA and ISIS are fighting for it and Russians are targeting only FSA with their airstrikes. Actually Russians are providing CAS for ISIS in some areas and ISIS is advancing under their cover.

These Kremlin bastards have always been very vile creatures (remember the Molotov-Ribentrop pact, Katyn massacre, Warsaw uprising events etc. etc.) able to make the deal with the Devil, and this war is proving this again.

Still scratching my head at that one sorry but I dont have a clue what you are talking about. The RuAf tempo of operations is "Moderate", there`s no half stepping there, its a solid assessment.

[snypa777]

oh like Russia ever NEED to import oil through Syria.. are you for real!?

Ah.. you mean US wanted their supported terrorist in Syria to get the oil when they had overthrown Assad, so in turn they could import it. got it now..

Its only ever about the price of oil, it doesn't matter where it comes from, there is a black market for everything under the sun. If you can purchase oil cheaply then sell it at a profit you are going to buy it, its not called Black Gold for nothing its a commodity nor does it matter whether you produce it or not.

[snypa777]

There is some story that the crew of the RF-4 bailed out and were held by the Russians in Syria, and that the Russians assisted in the shootdown itself.
Anybody have more on this?

Secondly, I joined this forum in 2005, it has changed lot, I also frequent other well known forums and they have also changed a lot, one thing which sticks out in my mind is the assault on them by the Putin Propaganda machine, its inexorable and very apparent.

[Robust]

There is some story that the crew of the RF-4 bailed out and were held by the Russians in Syria, and that the Russians assisted in the shootdown itself.
Anybody have more on this?

Secondly, I joined this forum in 2005, it has changed lot, I also frequent other well known forums and they have also changed a lot, one thing which sticks out in my mind is the assault on them by the Putin Propaganda machine, its inexorable and very apparent.

The sources in Turkey indicated that the pilots were found at the bottom of the sea , and still strapped to their seats. I remember reading news articles taht their helmets were found floating on the surface. The officials and newspapers were hopeful or thinking about possiblity of ejection and drifting at sea etc. but later search/findings indicated that the pilots went to the bottom of the sea inside their RF-4.

In terms of Russian involvement in the incident, I remember speculations in Turkish newspapers that recently delivered Syrian Pantsir SAM (uses gun and missiles combination in low-medium range) system was responsible for shooting down of Turkish RF-4. At that time, Russian instructors were still training Syrian crew how to operate the system and therefore, there was a possibility of Russian involment in firing of the missiles. Again, these are all speculations, no solid proofs ( at least to the public).

[borg]

oh like Russia ever NEED to import oil through Syria.. are you for real!?

Ah.. you mean US wanted their supported terrorist in Syria to get the oil when they had overthrown Assad, so in turn they could import it. got it now..

Its only ever about the price of oil, it doesn't matter where it comes from, there is a black market for everything under the sun. If you can purchase oil cheaply then sell it at a profit you are going to buy it, its not called Black Gold for nothing its a commodity nor does it matter whether you produce it or not.

Well I agree but it is in Russia's interest to help Syria take back the oil fields and hinder any more cheap black oil to Turks and income to ISIS. It doesn't mean Russia will take possession over it.

[tomcooper]

Well I agree but it is in Russia's interest to help Syria take back the oil fields...

Why should that be in Russian interest?

There is absolutely no disruption in flow of oil from Daesh-held areas to regime-held areas. Indeed, majority of Daesh-produced oil is sold to the Assadist regime (the rest is exported to Kurdish-held areas of north-eastern Syria and northern Iraq, and then - via different middlemen - abroad, including Italy and Israel) - and it's paid for by Iranian cash.

Unsurprisingly, until now, Russians didn't move their small finger to interrupt any of that flow. Moreover: half of the videos they've published and claimed to show 'attacks on Daesh oil refineries' are actually showing attacks on incomplete gas facilities, water-purification facilities (which used to supply 3,5 million of people in Aleppo area with clean water) etc.

[tomcooper]

There is some story that the crew of the RF-4 bailed out and were held by the Russians in Syria, and that the Russians assisted in the shootdown itself.
Anybody have more on this?

This was a duck launched by Saudi media (and then an outlet renowned for launching pure Saudi propaganda).

Bottom line: didn't happen. Bodies of both crewmembers were found still inside the cockpit.

[tomcooper]

Still scratching my head at that one sorry but I dont have a clue what you are talking about. The RuAf tempo of operations is "Moderate", there`s no half stepping there, its a solid assessment.

...it's not even 'moderate'; rather 'slow'.

They claim they have 12 Su-24s in Syria, but actually at least 21 have been identified so far. So, then, the MOD in Russia says, '12 aircraft flew 12-15 sorties a day', while it's actually (at least) 21 aircraft that have flown 12-15 sorties a day.

If you've got a way to follow the RT, it's easy to check this: you can see plenty of videos showing VKS' Su-24s (which is the type with most of maintenance problems there). Many of them are meanwhile wearing 'mission markings' - in form of small red stars applied behind the left cockpit. One red star stands for 10 missions flown.

Now: depending on the date of the video or photo in question, you can see Su-24s with as many as 70-90 mission markings, next to others with just 20 - or none at all.

Sure, some of ground crews are not following this practice, so this is anything but 100% dependable. However, when one asks Russians, and if it's 'unofficial', they're making no secret out of the fact that the type is old, and that it was always, and remains a 'maintenance nightmare', regardless of all recent upgrades.

[tomcooper]

You are an idiot. The proof is out there everywhere. Turkey is the only Nation State supporting ISIS directly.

Please, be so kind and don't call anybody an 'idiot' - and then post such nonsense here.

Turkey is rulled by a 'moderate' Islamist government, and it's no secret that this government is supportive 'even' of 'extremist' Islamists in Syria - like Jabahat an-Nusra (JAN). That is: that Turkish government and Turkish military intel are at least tollerating, if not outright supporting the activity of Qataris in Turkey, which are supportive for the JAN.

But, there is no trace of evidence (except plenty of hot air emitted from Moscow) about Turkey 'supporting ISIS' (i.e. 'Daesh').

The only thing at least distantly indicating something of this kind was an interview with some Daesh idiot that defected from the JAN to the Daesh, in early 2013. He said his group received 'Turkish arms' when they gathered inside Turkey and before joining the JAN inside Syria: whether these 'Turkish arms' were indeed 'Turkish', or provided to them by Qataris, is something we can discuss to the lenght.

Fact is: at that time, there was no Daesh.

Correspondingly: there's no trace of evidence that Turkey is cooperating with the Daesh in any way.

No doubt: there are plenty of Russian (and Assadist) lies in this regards.

Oil sales through Turkey.

Please check some maps: there is only one oil pipeline in Syria, and this is running from Palmyra (Daesh-held) to Homs (regime-held). Since pipelines are transporting manyfold more oil than even an entire army of trucks ever could, it's obvious where the most of Daesh-produced oil is running. Let me just add that deliveries of Daesh-oil to the Syrian regime are paid for by Iran, because the latter is keeping that regime alive ever since the regime bankrupted itself, back in November 2011.

Now, the eastern end of that pipeline (so-called 'T-pipeline', because it ends in Tartous, on the Syrian coast of the Med) is connected to the so-called H-pipeline, which is running from Kirkuk (in northern Iraq, and held by Iraqi Kurds) all the way through Jordan to Israel - i.e. through the part of Iraq completely held by the Daesh. This pipeline is easy to follow because of a number of air bases constructed atop of old airfields near its major pumping stations: guess that designations like 'H-2' or 'H-3' (in Iraq), 'H-4', 'H-5' etc. should ring a few bells to anybody who ever served in US military... what might be new to quite a few: Mafraq/Muwaffaq as-Salti AB in Jordan, and Ramat David AB in Israel were constructed atop something like H-6 and H-7 (or H-7 and H-8)...

Whatever, thanks to that pipeline - and unsurprisingly, though obviously - some of Daesh-produced oil - and that's still more than what is transshipped via Turkey - is ending in Israel.

Recruits to ISIS generally travel through Turkey.

That's right, and there is no way Turkey could prevent that flow. Heck: Israelis can't bring their 'border' to the Gaza Strip or the West Bank under total control although monitoring it 24/7 since 70 years... USA can't bring its border to Mexico under control... but you expect Turks to bring their 1,200km long border to Syria under complete control...?

Up until the Russians entered into the War in Syria the USA Coalition had done nothing to stop the Oil Trade...

...and now, and thanks to Russians, they are doing even less (and Russians nothing at all). So what?

Very selective bombing.

Russians? Yup, sure. They are all the time bombing Syrian civilians instead the Daesh. In two months of their ops in Syria, Russians have killed ten times more Syrian civilians than the CENTCOM-run campaign against the Daesh in 14 months.

Would you like to brag about that?

They were afraid to upset Turkey a member of NATO. Possibly also happy to let ISIS in Syria continue to weaken Assad's forces. Play the double game.

...talking about 'double games':
- declaring all Syrians who disagree with Assad for 'terrorists',
- bombing them and killing hundreds, thus causing another wave of 200,000 Syrians to flee to Turkey (and then to the EU),
- and at the same time cooperating with at least two major terrorist organizations (IRGC and Hezbollah), perhaps even four (if one adds the PKK and the PFLP-GC)... is what?

'Sincerety'? Nothing like a 'double game'...?

Condemn ISIS publicly but leave them alone where they in effect are helping you achieve your main aim.

Excellent summary of what Russia is doing. Thanks.

Worried about killing the civilian drivers is all "bull".

It might be BS, but it's better than slaughtering hundreds of Syrian civilians while claiming to 'bomb Daesh', like Russians are doing all the time since early October this year.

In the last three weeks most Russian attacks in Syria have been aimed at disrupting these supply routes...

Nonsense. The VKS flew about a dozen of air strikes against targets in Daesh-held territory so far (this is 2-3 days old info, so it might have been 2-3 more, meanwhile). Four of these have hit unknown objects, two resulted in carpet-bombing of two Syrian towns on the border to Iraq (causing about 50 civilian deaths, but not killing a single Daesh) - both of which were the source of a major local uprising against the Daesh, in early 2014; perhaps four resulted in partial hits on some petrochemical facilities (one actually hit a gas, not oil-refinery), and two hit a water-purification facility and thus cut off the water supply for 3,5 civilians still living in Aleppo area.

So, what please are you actually talking about? The only thing VKS can feel about its operations there is shame.

Unlike the moderate Turkmen who do not fight ISIS. The so called moderate Turkmen often work in with ISIS.

How shall they fight the Daesh, and how shall they cooperate with it - when there is 150km of space be tween them and the nearest Daesh position?

Syrian Turkomen are exclusively fighting various militias (officially 'Syrian army') consisting of Assad Alawites and Sunni Nazis ('Syrian Socialist National Party') that are assaulting their villages along the border to Turkey, in north-eastern Syria. Daesh has absolutely no presence there - and never had any.

If you like, then complain about that gang of 200 Turkish Jihadists from the Turkish Nazi gang 'Grey Wolves', that joined the JAN in north-eastern Syria (and shot that downed Russian pilot to death). But even if: they're all stauchly against the Daesh and fighting against the Assadist regime - too.

That is why Turkey attacked the SU24 and broke internationally accepted norm...

More nonsense. If anybody is some sort of 'violating internationally accepted norms', then the party flying combat aircraft into other people's airspace, and then employing electronic countermeassures that are jamming ATC radars. That's what prompted the NATO to start intercepting such flights over the Baltic Sea (in order to help the ATC track position of Russian aircraft and deconflict these from civilian airliners), and then change its ROEs to the following: if an unknown aircraft violates our airspace, and employs ECM, it's to be considered as hostile.

This was made known to the Russians. Therefore, after all the Russian violations of the Turkish airspace in early October this year, and Turkish warnings and threats, Deputy C-in-C VKS, Maj-Gen Sergey Dronov, visited Ankara, on 15 October, and met the C-in-C THK, Gen Akan Öztürk (this was videly published in Turkish and international media, so don't tell me it didn't happen). Between others, they agreed Russians would announce their fligths within area 15km from Turkish border for 12 hours in advance, and then also that Turks could warn Russians on two frequencies (the usual guard, and another, 'special' one).

On 24 November, two Russian Su-24s approached Turkish border: they were not announced by Russians. Turks then warned them, but Russians ignored the warning. Turks assessed them for 'unknown aircraft'. When these 'unknown aircraft' then began violating Turkish airspace and even dropping bombs either from within Turkish airspace or through it, the THK asked in Ankara, they concluded that the aircraft could only be Assadist, and order was issued to shot them down.

One Sukhoi came away, the other was shot down.

Bottom line: Russians botched up, and deftly at that.

They botched up when deploying to Syria a type that's so hard to maintain, that's so ill-equipped to operate there (also because its radio can't listen to more than one frequencies, and indeed, not on the 'guard'), that requires one minute of flying straight while approaching target, and that appears to an RWR with badly outdated threat libraries, or is protected by so sorrowly inadequate ECM, that it's already the third Su-24 shot down over Syria this year (including one Syrian example blown away by Israeli PAC-2s, and one by insurgent-operated SA-8s) - or has avionics that's malfunctioning all the time (and especially in combat).

And everything else is just emotional babbling, nothing else.

[mikemag]

Without a doubt, that's the most thorough explanation I've seen for what's going on in Syria and the fight against ISIS. I think I'll have to read it a few more times to make sure I grasp everything. Very impressive.

[Robust]

Thanks tomcooper. The condition of Russian Su-24s explains use of Garmin GPS in their cockpits. The recent video footage of RuAF videofootage shows they are bombing "grain silos" and "water treatment " facilities, Russian MoD is calling these targets as "oil refineries". It is truly a pathetic case and also shows lack of intellegence. As I said several times in this forum, RuAF is using 1980s technologies and equiments to conduct asymmetric warfare in 2015. Carpet bombing in 2015? Give me a break. The pictures of Russian bombed market place with full of "non-combatants", including dead bodies of children can be seen all over the internet. As we know, #1 target is not ISIS for Russia, but all anti-Assad groups. There are so many proof of that in the media.

[mtrman]

Tomcooper, well done for that comprehensive post. I am sure it will serve to the anybody who seek for the truth.

On the other hand, some propagandists who try to hide Assad, Iran and Russia's crime and brutality against Syrian People (which is destroyed almost completely by getting killed or being refugees) will continue their job. Ohh, I forget to mention their efforts of trying to hide what Daesh (ISIS, a gang of thugs) is and who is benefiting (Assad, Iran, Russia, PKK-PYD) and who is suffering (FSA, Sunni muslims of Syria, Turkey and Islam Religion in general) since the first day they appeared in Syria...

[madrat]

If Sukhoi did so much wrong in designing Su-24 family, how did they get so much correct in Su-27 family?