F-16 versus Saab Gripen

Agreed, it will never be a fair fight but how would the F-16 match up against the ... ?
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robban

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Unread post10 Dec 2009, 22:34

exec wrote:Hello everybody, it's my first post here.


Welcome!

Well, this is 'paper data' as we call it. It's like APG-77 with its 'greater than 100 mile (185km) range and Irbis-E with its 400 range (lol). But everybody knows that Irbis-E is NOT superior to APG-77 in terms of detection or tracking range.


I'm pretty confident that the PS-05 wipes the floor with any version of the APG-68. There is nothing that suggests otherwise.

Besides the numbers you quoted are not comparable. The size of the target is important. The APG-77 can track a fighter at 230km distance and a bomber at 490km. The Irbis-E is said to be able to track a fighter at 350-400km using its long-range detection mode within a limited sector. Who's to say the APG-77 can't do this as well? Don't let every secret out in the open.

Take into consideration the 0.1m2 (average) RCS of the Gripen

This is no more than a wishful thinking. :roll:


Image

And this is for an A version. C version is even smaller, and the NG smaller yet.

In real life exercise Gripens never knew what hit them. :wink:


Now THAT's wishful thinking! :lol:

In real life exercises, Gripens have owned Hornets and Falcons from the start. It's only natural, the Gripen is a new generation fighter after all. Even with new gadgets the F-16 is still hampered by its infrastructure.
Last edited by robban on 10 Dec 2009, 23:32, edited 1 time in total.
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robban

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Unread post10 Dec 2009, 22:43

loke wrote:

So most likely the reported results were down to ROE -- or perhaps the report was incorrect...?


tomcat21 who made the claim isn't even sure which exercise it was, or even when it took place. Was there even a report? And who wrote it? And what is its credibility? It's probably just bogus.

Otherwise the ROE must have forbidden the Gripens to use their radars and fly blind.

During Spring Flag 2007 when the Hungarians participated in their first international exercise with their Gripens they flew for the red team, meaning their job was to die. They rarely had AWACS or radar support of any kind and they weren't allowed to use AMRAAM's. Yet they made 10 kills in a day. Including a Typhoon. The Hungarian pilots commented that other aircraft couldn't see them on radar, not even visually, and they had no jammers of their own with them. They got a Fox 2 kill on an F-16 who turned in between the two Gripens but never saw the other guy and it was a perfect shot.
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exec

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Unread post11 Dec 2009, 09:23

robban wrote:The Irbis-E is said to be able to track a fighter at 350-400km using its long-range detection mode within a limited sector. Who's to say the APG-77 can't do this as well?

Interesting. I didn't know that.

robban wrote:
Image


Ok, it seems that your source is better than mine. :wink:

robban wrote:
In real life exercise Gripens never knew what hit them. :wink:


Now THAT's wishful thinking! :lol:

No, that is what happend in November in Sweeden.

robban wrote:Was there even a report? And who wrote it? And what is its credibility? It's probably just bogus.

That is NOT true. This information appeard in Polish magazine Lotnictwo (Aviation). Who wrote it? Major M. Fiszer - one of the most respected military aviation expert.
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robban

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Unread post11 Dec 2009, 10:38

No, that is what happend in November in Sweeden


There hasn't been any exercises in Sweden in November. Bold Avenger(were Sweden didn't participate) took place in Denmark 13-25 September 09. And Loyal Arrow was 8-18 June 09.

That is NOT true. This information appeard in Polish magazine Lotnictwo (Aviation). Who wrote it? Major M. Fiszer - one of the most respected military aviation expert.


My guess is that Major M. Fiszner simply made a mistake and said that it was Gripens when it was some other fighter type that was "killed" by their F-16's. After all there were no Gripens present in the Bold Avenger exercise.
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exec

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Unread post11 Dec 2009, 11:28

robban wrote:
There hasn't been any exercises in November. Bold Avenger(were Sweden didn't participate) took place 13-25 September 09. And Loyal Arrow was 8-18 June 09.

My mistake.

robban wrote:Then I guess he left out that the ROE didn't allow the Gripens to use their radars. Most likely they flew for the red(dead) team. That's the only logical answer.

You guess! And maybe they were unarmed, and had their engines turned off?
Come on... :wink: you just think that no matter what it's impossible to beat Gripen with F-16 B52+. But I think they are comparable aircrafts, just this time Gripens got owned. :wink:
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yakuza

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Unread post11 Dec 2009, 12:36

Gripen better than B52+ :shock: :lol:
so why is it always the first kicked out in all bids?Gripen always lost,without the Erieye AEW it´s a blind jet..

as to the APG-68-9,you should read some docs :idea:

APG68 doc

you must ask yourself,why the blk50/52+ had(still has) a big succes this decade?what we can not assume for crappy gripen.
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Unread post11 Dec 2009, 13:10

exec wrote:You guess! And maybe they were unarmed, and had their engines turned off?
Come on... :wink: you just think that no matter what it's impossible to beat Gripen with F-16 B52+. But I think they are comparable aircrafts, just this time Gripens got owned. :wink:


Contrary to popular belief the F-16 and Gripen are not comparable aircraft. People look at the two aircrafts and assume they are comparable. Size and range wise maybe, but their configurations and the demands on their designs are not comparable. Not to mention they are a generation apart. The Gripen was designed to take on and beat the Su-27 and future derivatives of its design. It's not a machine that needs to be complemented by a larger more capable fighter(F-15-F-16). It's not a more modern F-16 like so many people seems to think.

So no, they are not comparable. And frankly an F-16 will not be able to handle a Gripen in BVR at all, and not in WVR either for that matter.
Last edited by robban on 11 Dec 2009, 13:16, edited 1 time in total.
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loke

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Unread post11 Dec 2009, 17:20

yakuza wrote:Gripen better than B52+ :shock: :lol:
so why is it always the first kicked out in all bids?Gripen always lost,without the Erieye AEW it´s a blind jet..

as to the APG-68-9,you should read some docs :idea:

APG68 doc

you must ask yourself,why the blk50/52+ had(still has) a big succes this decade?what we can not assume for crappy gripen.

I remember now; I have seen the results of the Polish evaluation. They calculated an aggregate score, looking at a long list of different criteria. The scores for Gripen and F-16 were comparable -- Given the differences between the two, that would imply that whereas in some areas F-16 is better the Gripen would be better in others. Since it seems to me that perhaps F-16 has some advantages over the Gripen in a2g (in part due to bigger payload and longer range), it could be that Gripen could enjoy some advantages in a2a, since the scores were quite comparable. But again, the differences may have been small, I don't know. One thing that seems clear though is that neither fighter was markedly superior to the other (if that was the case I would not expect the aggregate score to be similar).

Poland chose F-16 for political reasons.


Anyway, I am eagerly waiting for the Gripen NG, now that will be a very interesting little bird... Dramatic improvement over the current Gripen.
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robban

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Unread post11 Dec 2009, 19:17

loke wrote:I remember now; I have seen the results of the Polish evaluation. They calculated an aggregate score, looking at a long list of different criteria. The scores for Gripen and F-16 were comparable -- Given the differences between the two, that would imply that whereas in some areas F-16 is better the Gripen would be better in others.


Well, the selection process is a muddy subject. There was a rather complicated points award system with 45 points for best price and only 20 points for tactical and technical requirements. In the end the ratings for the participating aircraft does not tell the whole story why Poland chose the F-16. But it had very little to do with actual performance figures.

The politicians wanted the F-16 and a stronger relationship with the US, and that's basically all there was to it. But this thread is not the place to discuss this.
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Unread post11 Dec 2009, 19:37

robban wrote:
exec wrote:So no, they are not comparable. And frankly an F-16 will not be able to handle a Gripen in BVR at all, and not in WVR either for that matter.

In my opinion in BVR they are comparable (similar radar capabilities, similar weapons) but here Gripen have an advantage due to lower RCS (however with weapons hanging under wings not that much lower).

WVR F-16 B52+ is superior - MUCH better TW ratio, ability to fire HOBS missiles.

As for ground attack capabilities - Gripen can't drop JDAM or fire any weapon that is programmed during flight (GPS bombs) becouse Gripen doesn't have MilStd-1760.
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Unread post11 Dec 2009, 21:40

exec wrote:In my opinion in BVR they are comparable (similar radar capabilities, similar weapons) but here Gripen have an advantage due to lower RCS (however with weapons hanging under wings not that much lower).


Hanging weapons on the F-16 will affects its RCS too right?

In the end the Gripen has better radar range than the F-16 and a much smaller RCS. How are they comparable? Not to mention Gripens world leading TIDLS and sensor fusion.

WVR F-16 B52+ is superior - MUCH better TW ratio, ability to fire HOBS missiles.


Yeah the F-16 has a higher TWR, but have you ever considered drag or wing loading at all? The Gripen has much lower drag. And far lower wing loading. It can reach supersonic speeds on dry thrust while carrying a full armament of four AMRAAM's two Sidewinders and an external fuel tank. Even though the Gripen lacks the TWR of the F-16 it can nearly match it in climb rate thanks to low drag. The Gripen has positive lift on all control surfaces at all times. The F-16 needs to kill lift in order to turn by forcing the tail down. The Gripen just adds lift in front of the CG with the canards and the aircraft turns by itself. The canards then stabilize the turn rate, creating minimal drag. The IRIS-T is now being integrated for the Gripen. And with its modern infrastructure it can make much better use of it than the F-16.

The Gripens ITR is much better than the F-16's and will therefore get its weapons on the F-16 first. The Mirage 2000 for example wins 9 times out of 10 against the F-16 in WVR, and nearly always kills the F-16 during the first turn. This is thanks to its higher ITR. And the Gripen has a higher ITR than the Mirage 2000.


As for ground attack capabilities - Gripen can't drop JDAM or fire any weapon that is programmed during flight (GPS bombs) becouse Gripen doesn't have MilStd-1760.


The F-16 has more avaliable ATG weapons than the Gripen that's true. But with Gripens lower RCS and IR signature its TIDLS as well as its EWS39 it will have a better chance of actually reaching the target and get home alive.

The F-16 is a good jet but it's still a generation older than the Gripen. No matter how many new gadgets you put on it can't make full use of them as the new generation can.

Here's a good read on the Gripen aerodynamics. http://www.mach-flyg.com/utg80/80jas_uc.html
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Unread post11 Dec 2009, 21:54

robban wrote:
exec wrote:In my opinion in BVR they are comparable (similar radar capabilities, similar weapons) but here Gripen have an advantage due to lower RCS (however with weapons hanging under wings not that much lower).


Hanging weapons on the F-16 will affects its RCS too right?

In the end the Gripen has better radar range than the F-16 and a much smaller RCS. How are they comparable? Not to mention Gripens world leading TIDLS and sensor fusion.


Sorry my friend but facts says somethnig else - info from Polish aviation magazine is trustworth and it shows something completly diffrent about detection range. Maybe just JAS-39C radar as well as it RCS are simply overrated? Theory is nice but still...its only theory.
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Unread post11 Dec 2009, 22:05

exec wrote:As for ground attack capabilities - Gripen can't drop JDAM or fire any weapon that is programmed during flight (GPS bombs) becouse Gripen doesn't have MilStd-1760.


Gripen does have MIL-STD 1760 and Edit: GBU-49 (sorry) is being integrated. Test firings has been carried out, I think a few months ago.
Last edited by Atle on 11 Dec 2009, 22:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post11 Dec 2009, 22:09

Sorry my friend but facts says somethnig else - info from Polish aviation magazine is trustworth and it shows something completly diffrent about detection range. Maybe just JAS-39C radar as well as it RCS are simply overrated? Theory is nice but still...its only theory.


Why would the Gripens RCS and radar range be overrated? Because a polish magazine says so? I just use official information on radar range and RCS. You saw the document didn't you? Please show us this article that give different ranges than the official data.

All the exercises have shown that the Gripen is very very difficult to detect on radar, and even visually. During Red Flag the Gripens didn't even need to use their EWS39. They remained undetected anyway. And that while being loaded with external fuel tanks, LGB's and a LANTIRN pod.
Last edited by robban on 11 Dec 2009, 22:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post11 Dec 2009, 22:19

Article was about Polish squadron not about F-16 vs JAS-39. Author mentioned this episode only in few words like "Pilots from 10th squadron took part in Loyal Arrow exercies 2009 where they met with Swedish JAS-39. Score was 4:0 on our pilots favour. Main reason of succes was higher detection of our planes. Similar score was achieved against Finnish F-18".
Thats it.
I want to notice that i'm not judging about completly F-16 superiority. I just want to show that air fight is much more complicated thing than tables, numbers, theory etc. This time Poles were lucky - other day lucky were JAS-39 pilots. Many depends from pilots, tactics etc.
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