Czech F-35s?

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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hythelday

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Unread post20 Jul 2022, 11:00

LMAO:

The government decided based on the military recommendation of the army, said Černochová. The Ministry of Defense wants to purchase 24 aircraft, so far the army has fourteen fighter jets. Swedish gripens will replace American planes in the army. The Czechia has a contract for their use until 2027, after which it can use a two-year option.

According to earlier estimates by experts, the value of the order will be in the higher tens of billions of crowns, so it will most likely be the most expensive military purchase in modern history.

The choice of American aircraft has been speculated for a long time. Sweden also recently came up with its offer. Its ambassador, Fredrik Jörgensen, said that Sweden wants to offer the Czech army a free transfer of the currently used Gripen fighter aircraft, the possibility of their modernization and at the same time the purchase of the most modern version of the Gripen E. The Ministry of Defense was surprised by the announcement, according to him, the Czechia did not receive an official offer.


https://ct24-ceskatelevize-cz.translate ... r_pto=wapp

F-35s are so expensive that Czechia which could only afford 14x 4700$ CPFH magical Gripens decided to go for 24x F-35. As I thought last minute scramble by his excellency the ambassador to offer "free Gripens" was nothing more than dirty tactic to skew public opinnion (this has probably worked well so watch for some heated debates and accusations of politics and sucking up to yankees).

In related news Czechia apparently also decided to buy CV90 IFVs also without competition based on, surprise, suggestion from legal office (?) since it would needlessly prolong the aquisition. Sensible decision IMO, and CV90 is an excellent vehicle. A consolation prize for the Swedes.
Last edited by hythelday on 20 Jul 2022, 11:06, edited 1 time in total.
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hythelday

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Unread post20 Jul 2022, 11:00

Official press release confirms 24x F-35s and plan to upgun CzAF to two squadrons. Acknowledges potential problems with "long lead times", which is natural given the number of F-35s in the pipeline by already established customers.

The Government of the Czech Republic made a crucial decision in the domain of acquisition and modernisation of the Czech Armed Forces. The Cabinet decided to cancel the tender for new infantry fighting vehicles and authorised Defence Minister Jana Černochová to commence negotiations with the Swedish Government to procure the CV90 combat vehicles. Minister Černochová was also authorised to negotiate the procurement of F-35 Lightning II multirole fighters with the United States Government. Those types of equipment are in the inventory of a number of NATO Allies and EU Member States, thanks to which the modernisation will strengthen cooperation and drive down the maintenance costs.


https://www.army.cz/en/ministry-of-defe ... -a-237515/
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jessmo112

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Unread post20 Jul 2022, 13:20

The F-35 line is getting crowded. Are we at capacity?
If the partners wanted a new line how would they do this?
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steve2267

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Unread post20 Jul 2022, 13:41

jessmo112 wrote:The F-35 line is getting crowded. Are we at capacity?
If the partners wanted a new line how would they do this?


Ramp up Cameri?

Story out yesterday was about a multi-year block buy handshake agreement between Pentagon and LM for 375 aircraft to be produced over 3 years. 375 was down from originally planned 485. I don't see why 375 couldn't be bumped back up to 485 if foreign nations want to snap them up ASAP. But they might get their aircraft before the infrastructure would be ready? Dunno.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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quicksilver

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Unread post20 Jul 2022, 16:46

Long lead negotiations with the subs is probably interesting, and as you suggest, jets would not be delivered before the requisite level of infrastructure was in place as well.
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steve2267

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Unread post20 Jul 2022, 18:17

quicksilver wrote:Long lead negotiations with the subs is probably interesting, and as you suggest, jets would not be delivered before the requisite level of infrastructure was in place as well.


If the bear was becoming more bellicose... there may be other ways. For example, perhaps Czechia could swing a deal with Norway (or ... ?) to base aircraft received at one of their locations until their local infrastructure is up and running. But then... there is always the training pipeline and whether or not it could support getting an influx trained.

Odd isn't it that the USA is all flustered about this-or-that vis-a-vis the latest F-35 failing or problem or costs-too-much etc etc... and people suddenly aware of the pointy end of a sharp stick are like "we'll take two dozen... how soon can we get them?"
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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magitsu

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Unread post20 Jul 2022, 19:56

I think most aren't in a hurry to receive the bulk until they are guaranteed to be at least TR3, or even full Block 4.

It can indeed be more interesting to consider other possible bottlenecks than just the fighter production itself.
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Unread post20 Jul 2022, 21:01

Czechs Want F-35 Fighter Jets, CV-90 Fighting Vehicles
20 Jul 2022 Reuters

"PRAGUE, July 20 (Reuters) - The Czech government agreed on Wednesday to open talks with the United States on supplies of the F-35 Lightning II fighter jets made by Lockheed Martin Corp to replace leased Gripen fighters from Sweden's Saab AB, Prime Minister Petr Fiala said....

..."These are important decisions at a time when the security of Europe and the Czech Republic faces new challenges caused by Russia's aggression in Ukraine."

Defence Minister Jana Cernochova said the country wanted 24 F-35s, and talks should be concluded by October next year.

The country now has 14 Swedish-made Gripen jets under a leasing agreement until 2027. Lockheed Martin said in June it could deliver the first F-35 fighter jets to Czech neighbour Germany in 2026, and expected more orders for the aircraft in Europe including possibly Greece and the Czech Republic...."

Source: https://www.f35.com/f35/news-and-featur ... -jets.html
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commisar

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Unread post23 Jul 2022, 01:15

spazsinbad wrote:
Czechs Want F-35 Fighter Jets, CV-90 Fighting Vehicles
20 Jul 2022 Reuters

"PRAGUE, July 20 (Reuters) - The Czech government agreed on Wednesday to open talks with the United States on supplies of the F-35 Lightning II fighter jets made by Lockheed Martin Corp to replace leased Gripen fighters from Sweden's Saab AB, Prime Minister Petr Fiala said....

..."These are important decisions at a time when the security of Europe and the Czech Republic faces new challenges caused by Russia's aggression in Ukraine."

Defence Minister Jana Cernochova said the country wanted 24 F-35s, and talks should be concluded by October next year.

The country now has 14 Swedish-made Gripen jets under a leasing agreement until 2027. Lockheed Martin said in June it could deliver the first F-35 fighter jets to Czech neighbour Germany in 2026, and expected more orders for the aircraft in Europe including possibly Greece and the Czech Republic...."

Source: https://www.f35.com/f35/news-and-featur ... -jets.html



Telling that the Czechs didn't even want "free" Gripens at this point.

Brazil really screwed up when they went Gripen it seems.
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laos

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Unread post26 Jul 2022, 20:40

commisar wrote:Brazil really screwed up when they went Gripen it seems.


Brazil has no threats that the Gripen E can't handle. Brazil is getting something the U.S. is not willing to deliver. Sweden will transfer the technology and the Brazilians will build Gripens at home. Much of the money they spent on the fighters will stay with them at home and go back into the national budget in the form of taxes.


Back to Czech F-35.
Is there any public information on when the F-35 will be available to the Czechs? A spokesman for the Polish Armament Agency said when asked why they are buying 48 FA-50s and not F-35s, that "check yourself when the F-35s will be available to the Czechs then you will understand why we did not consider buying the F-35 now."
From the context, it appears that he meant beyond 2030.
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wrightwing

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Unread post26 Jul 2022, 20:52

laos wrote:
commisar wrote:Brazil really screwed up when they went Gripen it seems.


Brazil has no threats that the Gripen E can't handle. Brazil is getting something the U.S. is not willing to deliver. Sweden will transfer the technology and the Brazilians will build Gripens at home. Much of the money they spent on the fighters will stay with them at home and go back into the national budget in the form of taxes.


Back to Czech F-35.
Is there any public information on when the F-35 will be available to the Czechs? A spokesman for the Polish Armament Agency said when asked why they are buying 48 FA-50s and not F-35s, that "check yourself when the F-35s will be available to the Czechs then you will understand why we did not consider buying the F-35 now."
From the context, it appears that he meant beyond 2030.

It's not going to be post 2030 for any of the current customers (or prospective customers.) The FA-50 isn't an interim jet till they get F-35s. Those are to replace older obsolete jets.
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Unread post27 Jul 2022, 02:49

laos wrote:
commisar wrote:Brazil really screwed up when they went Gripen it seems.


Brazil has no threats that the Gripen E can't handle. Brazil is getting something the U.S. is not willing to deliver. Sweden will transfer the technology and the Brazilians will build Gripens at home. Much of the money they spent on the fighters will stay with them at home and go back into the national budget in the form of taxes.


Back to Czech F-35.
Is there any public information on when the F-35 will be available to the Czechs? A spokesman for the Polish Armament Agency said when asked why they are buying 48 FA-50s and not F-35s, that "check yourself when the F-35s will be available to the Czechs then you will understand why we did not consider buying the F-35 now."
From the context, it appears that he meant beyond 2030.



While, Brazil may have no serious threat today that could easily change! What happens if Chile, Columbia, Peru, or Venezuela would acquire a Stealth Fighter? (KF-21, J-35, etc.)

Honestly, Brazil should have approached South Korea about joining the KF-21 Program instead of the Gripen...
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Unread post28 Jul 2022, 15:11

laos wrote:Brazil has no threats that the Gripen E can't handle. Brazil is getting something the U.S. is not willing to deliver. Sweden will transfer the technology and the Brazilians will build Gripens at home. Much of the money they spent on the fighters will stay with them at home and go back into the national budget in the form of taxes.


You may be right that currently there's no threats in South America that the Gripen E couldn't handle but like Corsair1963 said that could change and it probably doesn't need that much in order to change - for instance all it takes is for Chile to upgrade their F-16s to F-16V but then again Chile shouldn't be a threat to Brazil.

However the argument that "Brazil is getting something the U.S. is not willing to deliver. Sweden will transfer the technology and the Brazilians will build Gripens at home." is as fake as it can be since first of all the Gripen E engine is American (GE F414G) so there's NO technology being given to the Brazilians when it comes to engine which by the way is one of the most important components in a fighter aircraft. And there's also other American components in the Gripen E.
Moreover one third (1/3) of the entire Gripen E is British developed and made so then again this is technology which isn't being given to the Brazilians.
Basically the only thing that the Brazilians are building regarding the Gripen E is some fuselage parts such as speedbrakes and outer wings and the cockpit wide display. It's hoped that they will eventually build the entire fuselage but this is not certain. Basically we aren't talking about anything special that the Swedes may have given the Brazilians that they couldn't already develop or build.
Resuming the "Brazil is getting something the U.S. is not willing to deliver. Sweden will transfer the technology and the Brazilians will build Gripens at home." is only a political rhetoric in order to justify the Gripen E selection which IMO was wrong/bad since they would be much better served in all and every aspect if they have chosen the Super Hornet instead (but they didn't because of the NSA scandal).
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post29 Jul 2022, 20:50

ricnunes wrote:You may be right that currently there's no threats in South America that the Gripen E couldn't handle but like Corsair1963 said that could change and it probably doesn't need that much in order to change - for instance all it takes is for Chile to upgrade their F-16s to F-16V but then again Chile shouldn't be a threat to Brazil.


Would you be so kind as to point out to me where the border between Chile and Brazil is, because I don't see how Chile would be a threat to Brazil and where this potential Brazil-Chile war could take place.

ricnunes wrote:However the argument that "Brazil is getting something the U.S. is not willing to deliver. Sweden will transfer the technology and the Brazilians will build Gripens at home." is as fake as it can be since first of all the Gripen E engine is American (GE F414G) so there's NO technology being given to the Brazilians when it comes to engine which by the way is one of the most important components in a fighter aircraft. And there's also other American components in the Gripen E.
Moreover one third (1/3) of the entire Gripen E is British developed and made so then again this is technology which isn't being given to the Brazilians.
Basically the only thing that the Brazilians are building regarding the Gripen E is some fuselage parts such as speedbrakes and outer wings and the cockpit wide display. It's hoped that they will eventually build the entire fuselage but this is not certain. Basically we aren't talking about anything special that the Swedes may have given the Brazilians that they couldn't already develop or build.
Resuming the "Brazil is getting something the U.S. is not willing to deliver. Sweden will transfer the technology and the Brazilians will build Gripens at home." is only a political rhetoric in order to justify the Gripen E selection which IMO was wrong/bad since they would be much better served in all and every aspect if they have chosen the Super Hornet instead (but they didn't because of the NSA scandal).


According to available information, the Brazilians will build the fuselages and assemble the aircraft. This will provide them with a lot of knowledge on how to maintain aircraft, how to repair, overhaul and modernize them. South American countries as you look at their history have often had governments that the world did not like. There have been economic sanctions. Building an aircraft domestically increases the resilience of Brazil's armed forces against any sanctions imposed on their country. As for the American GE414 engine. When the Gripen C/D and its GE 404 engine were produced, it was assembled and then overhauled in Sweden by Volvo. I suspect it is the same now, and the Swedes can train the Brazilians to repair the GE414. It won't be like with the engines for the F-16, which the Polish Air Force has to send to the US and wait a year for repair because P&W doesn't want to give Polish jet engine overhaul plants the know-how to overhaul their engines.
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Unread post29 Jul 2022, 22:44

laos wrote: As for the American GE414 engine. When the Gripen C/D and its GE 404 engine were produced, it was assembled and then overhauled in Sweden by Volvo. I suspect it is the same now, and the Swedes can train the Brazilians to repair the GE414. It won't be like with the engines for the F-16, which the Polish Air Force has to send to the US and wait a year for repair because P&W doesn't want to give Polish jet engine overhaul plants the know-how to overhaul their engines.

The Swedes still cannot legally provide F414s to Brazil without the US approving the sale.
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