Czech F-35s?

[basher54321]

23rd June 2022

As the Czech Air Force continues to weigh up its plans to potentially replace its 14-strong Saab JAS-39C/D Gripen multi-role fighter fleet, Lockheed Martin has revealed that it has decided to drop its F-16 Block 70/72 Fighting Falcon proposal to instead prioritise its F-35A Lightning II offering.

The move was revealed by JR McDonald, vice president of F-35 Business Development at Lockheed Martin, during the opening day of the ILA Berlin Airshow on June 22. Commenting on the prospective Czech fighter competition – which aims to replace the JAS-39C/D fleet by 2027 – McDonald said: “Initially we offered both the F-16 Block 70/72 and F-35A, but after evaluating their needs, we have dropped the F-16.

https://www.key.aero/article/lockheed-m ... 1070855149

[hythelday]

Saab scrambling to salvage Czechia as showcase of Griprn superiority:

The Swedes offered free Gripen. We don't know anything, the Czechs reacted

Sweden will offer the Czech Republic a free transfer of the currently used Gripen fighters, said Swedish Ambassador Fredrik Jörgensen. The aircraft would be upgraded. According to the diplomat, this is an attractive economic offer. The Czech Ministry of Defense reacted cautiously. He knows nothing about the Swedish offer.

"Aircraft are currently leased. We would therefore consider them paid and we could leave them to the Czech Republic free of charge. These are fourteen Gripen C / D machines, which are currently used by the Air Force of the Army of the Czech Republic and which could undergo significant modernization. In the future, we could expand the cooperation to include E-series Gripen aircraft, "the Swedish embassy told iDNES.cz.

"The Ministry of Defense does not have an offer from Sweden, which the Czech Republic wants to offer for free transfer to the currently used Gripen fighters," the Czech side responded.

The Swedish ambassador emphasized that the Swedish manufacturer Saab is able to deliver new machines without a long waiting time. He also considers it important that the Czech army does not have to change the background that the aircraft need.

The Czech Republic leases 12 Gripen C / D fighters from Sweden in a single-seater version and two in a two-seater version. The lease will end in 2027 and can be extended by two years.

The Minister of Defense, Jana Černochová , announced that she would like to decide on the future of the Czech Fighter Air Force as soon as possible, and she had already received a military recommendation for further action from the army. The government could reportedly address the issue in the coming weeks. As one of the main candidates, there is talk of American machines of the so-called fifth generation F-35 Lightning. The number of Czech fighters could also increase from the current 14 to 24.

According to Jörgensen, Sweden wants to continue the current cooperation with the Czech army, which he considers a great success. He pointed out that Czech pilots are already used to Swedish fighters. "The solution we could propose is very advantageous in terms of economy and efficiency," he said.

According to him, Sweden is ready to submit a solid and financially attractive offer. "And we would be able to deliver new aircraft to the Czech Republic on time, without long waits, which is of course an important factor nowadays," he said. "The aircraft that the Czechia has leased so far could be transferred to the Czech Republic at virtually no cost. This is economically very attractive, "he emphasized.

According to him, the modernization of now rented machines could be completed within a year, and the production of modern types took another year to a year and a half. "It's a relatively quick transition, any other system would take much longer, that's obvious," he said.

Another advantage for the Czech Air Force in the case of continued cooperation is that it would not incur additional costs with a change of background or, for example, with the training of technicians. You would require a possible switch to another type of aircraft. He also stressed the lower operating costs of Gripen aircraft. "If you look at the cost of keeping airplanes in the air, we estimate that it would be five times more per competitor in a flight hour. This is, of course, something that needs to be taken into account, "he said.

Although the new Gripen E is equipped with more advanced systems than its predecessor, which pilots must train on, according to the ambassador, it is a smooth transition and does not require special retraining.

He said that Sweden had not been in contact with the Czech side recently about the future of the Czech fighter aircraft. However, realizing that Sweden could now want to move faster, representatives of Sweden decided to confirm their proposal. He noted that Sweden is open to an intergovernmental agreement as well as an agreement between the Czech government and the producer directly.

The contract for the lease of Gripen aircraft was signed by the government in 2004 for ten years, the costs were about 20 billion crowns. It was later extended to 2027 with an option for another two years. In the years 2015 to 2027, the state will provide 21.4 billion crowns to finance supersonic aviation.

https://www.idnes.cz/zpravy/domaci/grip ... omaci_remy

Amazing. Sweden's tactic is goig to the press directly claiming that their unicorn plane is whole five times cheaper that the competition! (According to their own estimate, generated out of thin air since no Es are in service and which are assessed to be as expensive as everyone else by the Finns). Meanwhile Czech armed forces have apparently already made a suggestion to MoD, and theiy certainly didn't know anything about the offer. Meanehile RUMINT says Czechia will announce air force future plans within a month and that 24 F-35s are on the table.

I mean it's not like Saab invited a bunch of journalists to Linköping less than a month before Finland announced they chose F-35 hoping to start a massive public flame since by that time all the official deadlines have passed. This time they went straight to the press apparently, no need to offer anything to the final customer at all, LMAO.

Should have offered 40 Gripen Es for free, maybe then they'd be considered

[steve2267]

"This is, of course, something that needs to be taken into account," he said.

As the Czech Minister of Defense ponders images of wrecked Ukrainian fighters strewn across the steppe.

Yeah, five times cheaper to operate (really???), but life expectancy... 1-3 missions. Eh, not so cheap.

[charlielima223]

I think it would be smart for lockheed martin to offer BOTH the F-35 and the F-16V. If the F-35 is too much for them the F-16V would be more than adequate. If they want overkill the F-35 is the name of the game.

[steve2267]

I think it would be smart for lockheed martin to offer BOTH the F-35 and the F-16V. If the F-35 is too much for them the F-16V would be more than adequate. If they want overkill the F-35 is the name of the game.

Fair point(s)... but WHAT IF the F-35 is already cheaper than any of the other alternatives available to the Czechs? (As already demonstrated by previous competitions, Finland and Switzerland in particular.)

[spazsinbad]

TOO SOON for a BLACK JOKE about RUSSIA needing FREE GRIPENS as CANNON FODDER against UKRAINE? Bleedin' Liberty GUV.

[optimist]

I think it would be smart for lockheed martin to offer BOTH the F-35 and the F-16V. If the F-35 is too much for them the F-16V would be more than adequate. If they want overkill the F-35 is the name of the game.

Come 2035+. The f-35 may just be the platform needed, for a single platform air force.

The profit from keeping old gripens in the air. Is worth giving them away for free. Even as Russian target drones

[spad_s.xiii]

More about the same, from https://www.seznamzpravy.cz/clanek/domaci-politika-stihacky-za-miliardy-chce-vlada-resit-v-cervenci-svedove-prisli-s-nabidkou-207638 (using Google translate)

The government wants to solve the fight for billions in July, the Swedes came up with an offer

Petr Fiala's government wants to decide in July which fighter jets Czech pilots will use after the lease of the current gripens ends. There are American or Swedish fighters to choose from. The Swedes offer to keep current gripens almost free of charge.
Article

The government of Petr Fiala (ODS) must decide as soon as possible what fighters the Czech army will use after the lease of Swedish gripens ends in 2027. Both the Americans and the Swedes are interested in this giant contract worth tens of billions.

The Nordics could offer a more modern version of the Gripen E/F. The competitor is the American F-35 fighters. The future of the Czech fighter air force will be discussed at the Straka Academy next month. It is a matter of time, the sooner the Czechia joins the queue among those interested in fighter jets, the better.

"The government should consider the future of supersonic aviation probably in July. It will be a political decision based on the expert recommendation of the army, which is assessing possible options," Defense Minister Jana Černochová (ODS) told Seznam Zprávy.

It is already clear that the Czechia does not want to continue in the form of a lease, but wants to buy 24 fighter jets, i.e. two squadrons. The minister does not want to indicate which side she is leaning on yet. According to Seznam Zpráv information, however, the Americans are in a better negotiating position.

For example, the Deputy Speaker of the House of Representatives Jan Bartošek (KDU-ČSL) favors American fighters. According to him, it is good that the government will decide on the purchase in time. “Yes, let's get our army the best there is on the market. The platform makes sense to me because a number of neighboring states will have it," says Bartošek, who alludes to the fact that many European states, such as Poland or Finland, have ordered American fighter jets.

"It is necessary to say what it all entails, including what the aircraft can do, what components we will buy to be able to use all the capabilities that the aircraft offers, including what parameters and requirements will be placed on any investment that it will cause. This means what will be necessary in the case of modernization of military airports," adds Bartošek.

Another coalition partner – TOP 09 – takes the purchase very seriously. "We are talking about something that will protect not only our airspace for several decades from 2027. Therefore, maximum balance is required. As far as I know, the army has so far prepared a recommendation which will now be considered by the government. I would not like to anticipate her final decision," says MP and member of the defense committee Marek Ženíšek (TOP 09).

Criticism of the opposition

However, the opposition is critical of the Ministry of Defense's actions. The ANO movement is annoyed that the topic of purchasing fighter jets for tens of billions of crowns was not addressed at all in the House of Representatives.

"We don't know anything about it at the defense committee. To date, we have not discussed any recommendations, it will probably just be a political decision. I don't have enough information to say that it will be the F-35, or that we should stick with gripens because they will be cheaper and we won't be training operators on it yet. I am rather surprised that the minister does not take such matters to the committee and bypasses it," the deputy chairman of the committee for defense Pavel Růžička (ANO) criticizes Černochová's approach.

MP Radovan Vích (SPD) would remain with the Gripens. And this also with regard to the financial demands of operating American aircraft. "There is already talk here that we need 24 aircraft and preferably F-35s. To that, I add that if he decides like this, that means the end of the modernization of the army's ground forces and the development of capabilities. One flight hour of the JAS-39 Gripen costs approximately 5 thousand dollars (117 thousand crowns), one flight hour of the F-35 costs 30 thousand dollars (704 thousand crowns). In order for it to make sense, each pilot should have 150 flight hours per year. In addition, retraining to a new type is a matter of one or two years."

Although, according to several Seznam Zpráv sources, there is talk that the current government wants to go the route of buying American fighters, the Swedes are not giving up and are trying to convince the Czechia until the last moment that their gripens would be a good choice.

Swedish offer

At the last minute, the Swedish government is trying to reverse the decision of the Czech government to its side by offering to leave the existing Gripen squadron.

"It is possible to transfer these currently leased aircraft to the Czech Republic at essentially zero cost. They've basically already been paid for, it's like leasing a car. We would consider them basically paid for and on this basis we could expand the cooperation system to gripens of the C series or further to the gripens of the E series," said Sweden's ambassador to the Czech Republic, Fredrik Jörgensen, in an interview with Seznam Zrápami.

The Swedes mainly argue for a smooth transition to the new "fighter" era of the Czech Republic - the Czech pilots know the machines well, the mechanics are well versed in them and the infrastructure is adapted to their use. They consider the prize to be their ace up their sleeve.

"Yes, there is a dramatic competition going on here. I don't want to talk too much about this competitiveness, I just want to emphasize the essence of our offer. We believe the new E series gripen is one of the best aircraft in the world and a fantastic value for money. No other supplier can really compete with us in this," says the ambassador of the Swedish government in the Czech Republic.

Defense Minister Jana Černochová (ODS), who is currently at the NATO summit, says she knows nothing about the offer. "This is completely new information for me. Here at the summit in Madrid, the Swedish side did not communicate or indicate anything to that effect. Therefore, I can comment on a possible offer only after I receive it officially and familiarize myself with its details," she said.

Military analyst Dušan Rovenský agrees that the transition to newer gripens would be easier for the Czech army.

"If the Czech Republic were to decide to buy gripens, it would simplify training and logistical security. Pilots of current Gripen C/D would no doubt retrain to Gripen E/F much more quickly than to an entirely new type of aircraft. In the same way, new means of ground security would not have to be purchased, but the current ones would basically suffice. Both of these things would undoubtedly reduce the purchase price of new gripens," says Rovenský.

USA vs. Sweden

Several European countries will have or have American fighters. These are, for example, Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands, Denmark, Norway and Poland. If Finland also joins NATO, this country will also have American fighter jets on order.

"The F-35 type is larger and more powerful than both the Gripen C/D and the Gripen E/F. This is of course reflected in the purchase price, but above all in the operating costs, which are higher than in the case of the Swedish aircraft. If the service of new aircraft is planned for 30 years as a standard, then it is a huge financial sum that can be saved in the state budget by continuing the operation of gripens," explains military analyst Rovenský.

But in the opinion of another military and security analyst Lukáš Visingro, the F-35 has a number of advantages. "For the F-35, it is calculated that it will be in operation and upgraded until 2070. If we buy the F-35, then we will solve the problem 40 years ahead. The costs, which will be higher at the beginning, are budgeted into a double life cycle. The F-35 will be the standard European aircraft."

According to Visingro, the government is now under time pressure and should make a decision as soon as possible, because other countries are also ordering the F-35.

This part sounds a little bit strange: "However, the opposition is critical of the Ministry of Defense's actions. The ANO movement is annoyed that the topic of purchasing fighter jets for tens of billions of crowns was not addressed at all in the House of Representatives."
But that is maybe normal procedure?

I wonder if MP Radovan Vích knows that $5k is the real cost of one flight hour for their Gripens? I guess he should know, being an engineer in the defence sector himself and spokesman for his party regarding defense issues, but maybe he's just quoting numbers he has heard from other sources.

Well, well, it seems like the government has already made up their mind, so I guess it will be 24 F-35 for the Czech Republic.
But can at least one squadron of F-35s be operative before end of 2027?

[ricnunes]

But can at least one squadron of F-35s be operative before end of 2027?

Depends when they (Czech) want to sign the contract.
For example if they decide to sign this year or even in the next year then I don't foresee any problems in having a fully operational squadron or at least in having 14 fully operational F-35's which would replace the (14) Gripens on a one-by-one basis by 2027. So the answer would be a clear yes.
Of course if they decide to sign in 2027 then the answer would be an obvious no.

[hythelday]

We believe the new E series gripen is one of the best aircraft in the world and a fantastic value for money. No other supplier can really compete with us in this," says the ambassador of the Swedish government in the Czech Republic.

LMAO no other supplier can compete apart from all this instances of Gripen losing in a competition to other suppliers. Just goes to show how Swedes don't like to brag.

And to think that 4700$ CPFH is still being touted as a figure for Gripen E is just mind-blowing. Can't wait for another crash and burn "it all political bruh" of the worst fighter in Europe right now. Unless the Czechs are completely brain-dead.

But I like that Saab dirty tactics have had at least some result, seeing how "experts" and politicians keep advocating it.

[steve2267]

But can at least one squadron of F-35s be operative before end of 2027?

No sweat... if the USN keeps putting off F-35 purchases and the USAF keeps slowing their purchase rate, there will be plenty of production slots for countries staring at the Bear.

$4700 CPFH... yeah, uh-huh. Cheap though, right? Not really... not after spending all that money and your prized Gripen fails to return from its first mission against the Bear and one less young man (probably) -- one more grave for your country to dig.

[spad_s.xiii]

Finland took their decision last year and will start getting deliveries of F-35 to Finland in 2026 and the year before for training in the US. Their Hornet flight wings will be replaced by F-35 from 2028 to 2030. Can the Czechs shorten that time by 2 years? Maybe, but I don't think it will be easy.
Switzerland plans to get their first deliveries in 2027.
My experience after 30 years in this business is that timescales tend to be extended and seldom shortened, but you never know.
On the other hand, I guess they can always extend their Gripen contract an extra year or two, so not a big problem.

[ricnunes]

Finland took their decision last year and will start getting deliveries of F-35 to Finland in 2026 and the year before for training in the US. Their Hornet flight wings will be replaced by F-35 from 2028 to 2030. Can the Czechs shorten that time by 2 years? Maybe, but I don't think it will be easy.
Switzerland plans to get their first deliveries in 2027.

Well, Canada selected the F-35 several months after Finland and Switzerland and could start getting the first F-35 deliveries already in 2025.

I guess it all depends on the type of contract that was signed. Curiously all these 3 country examples (Finland, Switzerland and Canada) currently operate the F/A-18 with the diference that the Canadian fleet is much older than the Finnish and Swiss ones, so this could be one of the reasons why Canada is slated to receive the F-35 somehow earlier despite selecting it later.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say here is that Finland will start getting F-35 deliveries in 2026 and Switzerland in 2027 because they (Finland and Switzerland) want to receive them during these dates/years and not earlier.

My experience after 30 years in this business is that timescales tend to be extended and seldom shortened, but you never know.

I would say that depends on the established production and supply lines. Remember that the F-35 is still in "Low rate" production. Once it hits "Full rate" production which is planned next year if I'm not mistaken and the supply lines become even more effective then F-35 production and deliveries will or should inevitably happen at a much faster pace.

IMO, timescales when it comes to fighter aircraft production/deliveries are extended in the beginning then shortened in the middle and then extended again in the late stages of a fighter aircraft manufacturing/production timescale. In this regard the F-35 is still in the beginning (but will reach the "middle" very soon during the next year or so).

On the other hand, I guess they can always extend their Gripen contract an extra year or two, so not a big problem.

Yes, that's a possibility. But and again, I doubt that this would be needed if the Czech select the F-35 soon (rather than later).

[mixelflick]

Free Gripens after lease? Wow.

Smacks of one thing: Desperation. And it didn't even work! One word - sad.

[hythelday]

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