USMC Load 16 F-35Bs USS Tripoli ‘Lightning Carrier' Concept

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ricnunes

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Unread post22 Oct 2022, 14:24

timmymagic wrote:4 Supply Class were built. But only 2 are still in service. 2 were retired to the reserve almost 10 years ago as they cost too much to run. The Supply Class replaced the also monstrously expensive Sacramento Class, which used battleship turbines to hit 26 knots...


Thanks for the info timmymagic! :thumb:

For some reason I though that these Supply Class ships were more modern then they really are. And I also didn't know that 2 of them (from a total of 4) were retired to the reserve almost 10 years ago.


timmymagic wrote:The AOR concept as seen with the US Sacramento and Supply Class, and the UK's Fort Class appears to have fallen out of favour in recent years as dedicated solid stores or oilers have become favoured by Navy's that can run both types.

25 knots is more than enough to keep up with a CSG. They don't ever run at 30 knots for prolonged periods...for the simple reason that the escorts can't run at that speed for any real length of time before they need refuelling themselves..or suffering a mechanical casualty. The carriers top speed is for when it really needs wind over deck for flight ops, at that point it may move out of formation to conduct flight ops whilst the escorts and replenishment vessels keep moving on the general fleet heading.


Yes, absolutely.
Current supply/oiler ships like the Henry J. Kaiser-class replenishment oilers are currently starting to be replaced by John Lewis-class replenishment oilers which have a top speed of ("only") 20 knots.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post23 Oct 2022, 22:16

ricnunes wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Those types of replenishment ships would meet up and service the Carrier Battle Groups. Yet, they don't actively operate side by side with them under normal conditions.

Apples and Oranges


So you're saying that when the "sh*t hits the fan" and god knows how and when this will happen that the replenishment ships for some "miracle" won't be around?

Moreover, several sites like the one below:
https://www.acibc.org/wp-content/upload ... raphic.pdf

Indicate that a US Navy Carrier Battle Group is usually composed by:
- Aircraft Carrier (1)
- Cruiser (1)
- Destroyer (between 4 to 6)
- Replenishment Ship (1)
- Submarine (1)

So no, replenishment ships do not simply "meet" with carrier groups - They are part of a carrier group!
It's the replenishment ships that allow the carrier group's warships to be replenished with fuel and ammo whenever needed and for that a replenishment ship must always (or almost always) be present.
So yes, replenishment ships actively operate side by side with carriers and other warships.


Sorry, you're wrong....sure you will see replenishment ships in pictures operating next to Carriers and their Escorts in "PEACE TIME". Yet, under wartime conditions that would be another matter. As they just can't keep up......
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ricnunes

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Unread post23 Oct 2022, 23:22

Corsair1963 wrote:Sorry, you're wrong....sure you will see replenishment ships in pictures operating next to Carriers and their Escorts in "PEACE TIME". Yet, under wartime conditions that would be another matter. As they just can't keep up......


So, you're saying that Carriers and their escorts only need fuel and other supplies during PEACETIME but not during WARTIME?? :shock:

I even would say that during WARTIME carrier group ships will need more replenishment (and more frequently so) of fuel and supplies (such as ammo/missiles) compared to PEACETIME since fuel and supplies are certainly expended at a much faster rate during WARTIME!
So yes, you'll likely even see Replenishment ships operating in carrier groups more frequently during WARTIME compared to PEACETIME (again because supplies are expended at a much faster pace during WARTIME).

About "keeping up" speed wise, others already told you that the carrier will only use its maximum speed when launching aircraft into the headwind as neither the carrier or the escorts can or will maintain speed of 30+ knots for long periods.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post23 Oct 2022, 23:37

ricnunes wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:Sorry, you're wrong....sure you will see replenishment ships in pictures operating next to Carriers and their Escorts in "PEACE TIME". Yet, under wartime conditions that would be another matter. As they just can't keep up......


So, you're saying that Carriers and their escorts only need fuel and other supplies during PEACETIME but not during WARTIME?? :shock:

I even would say that during WARTIME carrier group ships will need more replenishment (and more frequently so) of fuel and supplies (such as ammo/missiles) compared to PEACETIME since fuel and supplies are certainly expended at a much faster rate during WARTIME!
So yes, you'll likely even see Replenishment ships operating in carrier groups more frequently during WARTIME compared to PEACETIME (again because supplies are expended at a much faster pace during WARTIME).

About "keeping up" speed wise, others already told you that the carrier will only use its maximum speed when launching aircraft into the headwind as neither the carrier or the escorts can or will maintain speed of 30+ knots for long periods.


What don't you get? Supply Ships come in and replenish the Carrier Battle Group and then depart.....they don't operate as part of the Strike Group during actual combat operations. (and for obvious reasons)
:roll:
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Unread post23 Oct 2022, 23:43

Somehow the concept of the maneuverability of any ship in a CSG needs to be considered - no matter the conditions otherwise. A CSG does not travel in a photo op formation all the time. Sometimes the CVN/other ships will slow to allow the replenishment ship to arrive alongside for the transfer of fuel/stores. Stores alone can be transferred by helo from a great distance between ships. The fast ships will rendezvous with the slow replenishment ships, which may be some distance apart at any given time. The replenishment ships may be protected by aircraft/helos/other ships depending upon the size of the CSG and the tactical situation. Some posters seem to forget these aspects of 'fast to slow' ship movements.

I see 'Corsair1963' has typed a reply whilst I type mine. Yes the supply ships can come and go but likely only when they themselves need 'replenishing'. In any event it is always a very fluid situation. GEDDIT? :mrgreen: The supply ships may remain in the vicinity where 'vicinity' may be a long or short distance away depending upon tactical factors. Ships are flexible.
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ricnunes

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Unread post24 Oct 2022, 12:11

spazsinbad wrote:Somehow the concept of the maneuverability of any ship in a CSG needs to be considered - no matter the conditions otherwise. A CSG does not travel in a photo op formation all the time. Sometimes the CVN/other ships will slow to allow the replenishment ship to arrive alongside for the transfer of fuel/stores. Stores alone can be transferred by helo from a great distance between ships. The fast ships will rendezvous with the slow replenishment ships, which may be some distance apart at any given time. The replenishment ships may be protected by aircraft/helos/other ships depending upon the size of the CSG and the tactical situation. Some posters seem to forget these aspects of 'fast to slow' ship movements.

I see 'Corsair1963' has typed a reply whilst I type mine. Yes the supply ships can come and go but likely only when they themselves need 'replenishing'. In any event it is always a very fluid situation. GEDDIT? :mrgreen: The supply ships may remain in the vicinity where 'vicinity' may be a long or short distance away depending upon tactical factors. Ships are flexible.



For what's worth, I never intended to say or hint that replenishment ships always operate close to the carriers in a tight or "static" formation when operating as part of a Carrier group. What you say Spaz, is absolutely correct - All ships in a carrier group operate in "dynamic" or changing formations depending on the tactical situation and that includes the replenishment ships. Even if the replenishment ships aren't always close and right next to carrier they are still part of the Carrier group.
Like you said Spaz, a carrier group can be divided in two (or more?) groups just like for example a Finger Four formation of fighter/combat aircraft but the ships of these spitted groups will still belong to the same Carrier group.

And again, here's the composition of a Carrier Strike Group:
https://www.acibc.org/wp-content/upload ... raphic.pdf

And guess who's part of the Carrier Strike Group? Yes that's right, the replenishment ships :wink:

Anyway, the point is: If replenishment ships are part of a Carrier Group - and they are, check link above - so can a LHA/Assault/Light carrier such as the USS Tripoli.
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post24 Oct 2022, 12:12

Corsair1963 wrote:What don't you get? Supply Ships come in and replenish the Carrier Battle Group and then depart.....they don't operate as part of the Strike Group during actual combat operations. (and for obvious reasons)
:roll:


Again and in case you missed it or didn't get it:
https://www.acibc.org/wp-content/upload ... raphic.pdf
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post24 Oct 2022, 21:50

ricnunes wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:What don't you get? Supply Ships come in and replenish the Carrier Battle Group and then depart.....they don't operate as part of the Strike Group during actual combat operations. (and for obvious reasons)
:roll:


Again and in case you missed it or didn't get it:
https://www.acibc.org/wp-content/upload ... raphic.pdf



Your the one not getting it........ :?
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Unread post03 Nov 2022, 19:08

ricnunes wrote:
Corsair1963 wrote:What don't you get? Supply Ships come in and replenish the Carrier Battle Group and then depart.....they don't operate as part of the Strike Group during actual combat operations. (and for obvious reasons)
:roll:


Again and in case you missed it or didn't get it:
https://www.acibc.org/wp-content/upload ... raphic.pdf


You seem to be talking past each other.

Yes, the replenishment ships (unless the CSG has a T-AOE it is ships, as in a T-AO and a T-AKE configured for ammunition) are part of the CSG. As in they are assigned to support the CSG. In fact, the T-AKE carries a significant amount of the CSGs ordnance. But, they do not always operate with the CSG in theater.

First, they are also tasked to support other, non-CSG assets in theater as well, just as non-CSG CLF ships, such as T-AKEs configured for dry cargo or theater T-AOs, support the CSG.
Second, especially for any of the refueling ships, they have to regularly load cargo fuel, either in port or by CONSOL (rarely used for a variety of reasons). Even the T-AKE needs to regularly deliver outgoing cargo and pick up cargo for the group at various logistics ports.
Third, the CLF ships do not have the speed and maneuverability to escape the sometimes crazy, at least to those not on a carrier, maneuvers of the CVN as it searches for the wind. So staying away from said carrier is always preferred unless they are actively refueling/resupplying/rearming the CSG.

So yes, they are part of the CSG, because they are deployed to support the CSG. Where the CSG goes, the CLF ships follow. However, they do not always operate with the CSG as they could not do their mission if they had to do that.

In wartime, the protection of those ships when not with the CSG are a major concern, and may be accomplished via a variety of means from CSG assets or theater assets depending on the threat. Increasing usage of fuel and weapons increases the need for the CLF assets to operate with the CSG, but also the need for said CLF assets to not operate with the CSG (loading cargo fuel, ammunition, cargo, etc).

Finally, unless there is only one CSG in the area which doesn't happen very often in wartime, the CLF assets are typically centrally controlled to maximize the utilization of the assets and allow the CSGs to focus on what they are doing.
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Unread post01 Dec 2022, 19:04

TWO stories more or less the same from the same USN/USMC press release I guess with some interesting F-35 tidbits.
OTHER USN details: https://seapowermagazine.org/amphibious ... eployment/
UPDATED: USS Tripoli Returns to San Diego After Seven-Month Maiden Deployment
Mallory Shelbourne 29 Nov 2022

"Amphibious assault ship USS Tripoli (LHA-7) returned home on Tuesday following a seven-month deployment to the Indo-Pacific, the Navy announced....

...“The U.S. Marine Corps embarked 16 F-35Bs aboard Tripoli, which flew missions in support of exercises Valiant Shield 22 and Noble Fusion,” according to a Tuesday release from Expeditionary Strike Group 3. “Overall, the crew completed 2,052 hours of flight operations and traveled 40,303 nautical miles during exercise support.”

That testing evaluated how a big-deck amphibious warship can work with a carrier strike group, USNI News previously reported.

“One day you can have F-35Bs on the flight deck, the next day you could have MV-22s and you can be putting Marines ashore. And so it just is a very versatile instrument and the fact that you have 14 5th-gen fighters on board – it’s an incredibly capable sensor,” U.S. 7th Fleet commander Vice Adm. Karl Thomas said in October of the concept and testing. “And so we’re still in the experimentation phase. We wanted to at least try to find out how would you integrate an assault carrier with a full-sized carrier. What missions might it be able to do?”

During Tripoli‘s time in the Indo-Pacific, it drilled with aircraft carriers USS Abraham Lincoln (CVN-72) and USS Ronald Reagan (CVN-76) for the Valiant Shield exercise in June.

“What we found is we distributed our three large decks for a period of time,” Thomas said of the June exercise.
“There’s mission sets that I think that it’ll be designed for. I think that there are regions where it can operate in a better capacity. And then I think that because of the vertical takeoff nature of the F-35, you can find yourself putting F-35s in [Expeditionary Advanced Base Operations] and maybe bring them back out to the ship for some maintenance and you move them elsewhere,” he continued. “Maybe you latch them up with the carrier and you use the command and control of the electronic countermeasure capability of the [E2-D Advanced Hawkeye and the EA-18G Growlers]. So we’re still in the experiment phase.”...

...At the end of August, Tripoli made a port call in Singapore after operating in the South China Sea. The ship continued operating in the Western Pacific throughout the fall and also sailed to Australia, making port calls in Sydney and Hobart, Tasmania earlier this month."

Source: https://news.usni.org/2022/11/29/uss-tr ... deployment
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Unread post02 Dec 2022, 14:03

Sounds like they can support the F-35B attached to land deployed units while also maintaining their own attachment. I wonder if that works both ways, save for pilots that are experienced more so one way than another, and you could conceivably move 24-32 into the region with each LHD in support.
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