F-35s austure basing and the Rand study.

[Gums]

Salute!

@Outlaw....

Hell, I forgot Tucson, and it gets real hot there. Also didn't think about the Hun taking a long run.

Nevertheless, when you and I and others have seen the last 1,000 ft marker go by, you gotta trust the numbers and be smoooooth! We had a few guys bounce on the overrun at Korat cause they over rotated or jerked back. Dat's when the DO had us go from 10 X MK82 to 8 X MK82.

Gums sends...

[element1loop]

So ~4,000 ft of mat plus a graded over-run for an ejection zone with nothing hard in the way. So if refueling is by AAR and weapons are air-dropped, people moved about as needed by V-22, then there's no need to roll-out C-130 at all, and no need to get them into the air fast. Less detection footprint going in, or coming out. Small amphibious landing ship provides the rest.

Where the real estate is limited use F-35C, where there's a >6,000 ft runway and/or can extend with mat, use F-35A.

[XanderCrews]

This as well ...

VMFA-314 Demonstrates Expeditionary Capability, Makes F-35C History

US Marine Corps; issued Dec. 8, 2020

That pic is going to make so many heads explode

[blindpilot]

This as well ...

That pic is going to make so many heads explode

<sarc on> Nah obviously photo shopped, everyone knows the "C" hook will never be able to make a trap ! <sarc off>

oops wrong thread - ship it over to the "evolution of arguments" thread ...

[spazsinbad]

A wordy article about the recent EABO F-35C Expeditionary Arrest with many quotes about how it was all done here:

Marines Demonstrate Ability to Include Carrier-Based F-35Cs in Expeditionary Base Plans 10 Dec 2020 Gidget Fuentes

https://news.usni.org/2020/12/10/marine ... base-plans

'DOGE' posted the full article text here 8 minutes later: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=53517&p=447446&hilit=Ahern#p447446

[jessmo112]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... e-airfield

Dump me somewhere in a austere location, if its posted.

[blindpilot]

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/39278/air-force-f-35-stealth-fighters-are-now-operating-from-guams-austere-airfield

Dump me somewhere in a austere location, if its posted.

LOL, Well Ft Carson has a 4500ft "austere" Butts Field in Colorado Springs, just a short 10 minute drive over to the 13,500ft concrete runway at Peterson AFB, and nice apartments nearby in the nearly 750,000 population metro area.

Me thinks "austere" doesn't mean what we thought it did ....

BP

[spazsinbad]

The best EABO thread has been locked so article will be plonked here. Can an F-35B PLONK aboard an LCS? Emergency?

Moving Marines Across the Pacific Could Be Littoral Combat Ship’s Next Mission [very long article]
28 Sep 2021 Mallory Shelbourne

"...Now the LCS might be ready for a new mission – moving Marines across the Indo-Pacific. As the U.S. Navy navigates a new era of strategic competition with China in a constrained fiscal environment, the service could turn to one of its pained ship programs to help perform the Marines Corps’ Expeditionary Advanced Based Operations (EABO) island-hopping campaign in the Pacific....

...For example, the Marines have tested using MV-22B tilt rotors and KC-130s to build remote bases to refuel and rearm F-35B fighters. The Marines are also experimenting with a modified Joint Light Tactical Vehicle to lob anti-ship missiles from shore in a program known as NMESIS. The idea is to rely less on the Navy’s massive amphibious ships and more on air and smaller platforms and units to spread Marines around islands and shorelines....

...While the possibility of using the LCS to move Marines around the littorals is not new, the recent shift to a strategy focused on countering China and the Marine Corps’ emphasis on new operating concepts like EABO and Littoral Operations in a Contested Environment (LOCE) brings new urgency to an idea that has percolated throughout the Navy for years.

"These Ships Are FAST"
The idea of using the LCS to pitch in for EABO specifically applies to the Independence-variant, which has a large mission bay that experts say could house Marines. The Indy-class ships are also heading to the Pacific region and receiving priority for the Naval Strike Missile. Several Independence-class ships have deployed to the Indo-Pacific in the last year.

During a recent USNI News visit aboard Kansas City, Nowakowski touted the speed of the LCS – more than 40 knots – as one of its attributes that could help with the Marine Corps mission....

...While experts see a future in testing the LCS to shuttle Marines, analysts also note limitations to how the ship could perform the mission because of the vessel’s size, design and habitability onboard....

...“The shortfalls – and the reason the Marines are still pushing for this Light Amphibious Warship – are that the LCS, it can’t drive up on the beach. It’s got a shallow draft, but to offload the Marines, you really have to pull up to a pier of some kind. Or, if you’re going to send them ashore in boats … you can certainly send boats over the side of the LCS, but it’s not really designed for that, so it’s a slow process,” Clark said...."

Photo: "USS Tulsa (LCS 16) conducts routine operations in the Philippine Sea on June 13, 2021. US Navy Photo" https://news.usni.org/wp-content/upload ... 052_n.jpeg

Source: https://news.usni.org/2021/09/28/moving ... xt-mission

[madrat]

Hey now, I believe I once asked about the feasibility of rerouting F-35Bs to an LCS in an emergence and you kind of laughed off the idea.

I think its a brilliant idea, especially if they can vertically take off from them for recovery to an LHD or CVN. The Blacksheep would have loved this idea.

[quicksilver]

Did a couple VLs and VTOs in A-model Harrier in early 80s on/off LPD. Based on that experience, my guess-timates—

Size? Plenty big enough.

Deck Materials and Thickness? Unknown. But given mods required for long term durability of LHA/D decks, LCS would likely require significant deck mods including underlying structure.

Flight Envelope? Operational limitations for both VL and VTO would likely be significant for both allowable winds (in both az and velocity), and allowable deck motion.

Investment vs Reward? Not worth it.

[spazsinbad]

Hey now, I believe I once asked about the feasibility of rerouting F-35Bs to an LCS in an emergence and you kind of laughed off the idea. I think its a brilliant idea, especially if they can vertically take off from them for recovery to an LHD or CVN. The Blacksheep would have loved this idea.

I thought you would not forget. However just LAND IN AN EMERGENCY - NOT OPERATE. YES I'm aware of shortcomings and the likelihood the deck would need some significant mods but JUST FOR A ONE TIME EMERGENCY LANDING? I'm impressed by the 40 knot speed of LCS. I'm wondering in calmer South China Sea waters what that means for sea-keeping for such an emergency vertical landing. Yes there are downsides. That is not a pun but it is punny. For emergency use ONLY.

[Corsair1963]

The LCS could operate a number of combat drones!






https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/2 ... mbat-drone

[kimjongnumbaun]

F-35Bs and Cs operate in austere environments, unless I am unaware of any landing pads in the middle of the ocean.

Hey now, I believe I once asked about the feasibility of rerouting F-35Bs to an LCS in an emergence and you kind of laughed off the idea.

Funny you mention this.

That time a Royal Navy Sea Harrier did an emergency landing on a Spanish Cargo ship: the Alraigo Incident

https://theaviationgeekclub.com/that-ti ... -incident/

[steve2267]

USN tested Harriers on the newer class of LPD's in 2009. Articles mentions JSF

New ship: Harrier's emergency option?
November 29, 2009 3:01 PM by LANCE CPL. AUSTIN HAZARD

"We're defining the operational parameters for safe and acceptable wind conditions," said Rothermel. "We're also monitoring flight deck heat levels during and after takeoffs to make sure its structure can handle Harriers and the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). The heat the Harrier puts off when landing and taking off (vertically) is pretty high, so we have to ensure repeated use won't warp the deck."

Though the squadron did not fly the JSF during this testing, the heat emitted from the JSF is greater than that from a Harrier. If the ship can't handle a Harrier, it won't be able to handle a JSF, said Rothermel.

https://archive.ph/20131123001853/http://www.yumasun.com/articles/ship-54531-harriers-green.html

Who knows how long that archive will last, so am attaching a PDF of the article.

There would appear to be enough room to land a Bee on the back of an Independence in an emergency. Of course, if it had never been tested, I'd hate to be the test pilot making that first landing in that emergency. The hangar door on an Independence appears too narrow, and who knows if it is deep enough that you could stuff a Bee inside anyway even if you could wave your engineering wand and widen the hangar doors. If you could, then maybe you could fit four onboard, but I've never seen any photos that remotely suggest VL operations with other aircraft so close. In some sort of emergency, it might be possible to shuttle seven bees somewhere, but again, hangar doors for the seventh. AND you'd need a Skyhook at your load and unload points.

Even if you could get one or two (four?) aboard, each Bee is going to have to tank immediately after takeoff if it is going any sort of distance. And if trying some crazy Doolittle type operation, not sure 5K gas is enough margin to VL T/O then tank. Two thousand pounders + two slammers puts the Bee around 35K gross. Adding 5K gas gets you to 40K lbm total weight. If total vertical lift is 40K lbf, then you're sitting there burning gas until light enough to slowly rise. Doesn't sound like fun if the boat is bouncing along at 40 knots. But even if that is all doable... if there is no CVN nearby (and if there is, this exercise is moot), gonna need an KMV-22B on station. Prolly one KMV-22B per Lightning.

Seems pointless. But a fun image editing exercise. (FWIW -- images were scaled in AutoCAD: LCS by centerline length, F-35B by wingspan.)

[spazsinbad]

What a nice find and fanks for the CAD drawings. PDF attached has been edited for my BIG PDF viewing form factor. BTW BIG 4.4 Gb PDF has not been able to be edited - however a new 64 bit version of Adobe Acrobat DC may be able to do it.

So for ARCHIVE SAKE (no not the DRINK!) here is a direct download link to the last latest always FREE version of da PDF:

https://1drv.ms/b/s!AuYHBzTWY83LgZBGwJh ... A?e=MVe8HK

4.4 Gb PDF: 04aug2020A4GskyhawkRANFAAp16918.PDF (4.4Gb) The link will not work in IE11, one will see a blank page with TEXT OPTIONS strung along the top of the page. Choose the 'DOWNLOAD' option to FIRST save that BIG PDF to your hard drive BEFORE opening it with the latest version of Adobe Acrobat Reader - there is now a 64 bit version of it which has a lot of features the READER did not have before. Amazeballs. Use EDGE in Windows 10 please.
Adobe Acrobat Reader DC suitable for your operating system: http://get.adobe.com/reader/otherversions/