F-35s austure basing and the Rand study.

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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marauder2048

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Unread post10 Dec 2020, 03:06

weasel1962 wrote:
Conan wrote:I like studies where someone contemplates large numbers of incoming Chinese missiles, but forgets / wilfully ignores that large numbers of missiles will be headed China’s way as well and that their missile launching capabilities will be soon significantly degraded...

Seems like a worthwhile exercise...


The US will have to do better than desert shield to have "large numbers of missile will be headed China's way".


Given that the sum total of CALCM and TLAM fired in all of Desert Shield/Storm was like two SSGNs worth
that doesn't seem hard. Especially with the cargo bombers.
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Gums

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Unread post10 Dec 2020, 03:14

Salute!

So while we are talking about dispersal and such, "War Zone" had this today.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... y-airfield

As usual, the USMC didn't read the timeline. They are about to declare the Cee operational without waiting for sfwe version 5.6(a) or whatever. Dunno what the USN is doing, but guess the Jarheads can carry the day when next confrontation is upon us.

Gums sends...
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marauder2048

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Unread post10 Dec 2020, 04:01

Gums wrote:Salute!

So while we are talking about dispersal and such, "War Zone" had this today.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... y-airfield

As usual, the USMC didn't read the timeline. They are about to declare the Cee operational without waiting for sfwe version 5.6(a) or whatever. Dunno what the USN is doing, but guess the Jarheads can carry the day when next confrontation is upon us.

Gums sends...


Which given the takeoff roll indicated in the article and the runway length you'd need all of two runway
penetrator carrying IRBMs to shut that runway.

For STOVL it would be fourteen missiles.
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element1loop

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Unread post10 Dec 2020, 04:29

XanderCrews wrote:
jessmo112 wrote:I dont think that in a neer peer conflict that the U.S. wil suffer from an availability of launch platforms.
I think the issue is having enough stand off weapons.
The sheer volume of weapons launched will deplete stocks.


This is why the F-35 exists, we learned in 1991 that there is simply more targets than missiles. youll have to get close with bombs. Thats the dirtly little secret. its unsustainable to go cruise missile crazy.


Could not agree more. Why I was waffling about how to toss-bomb an S400 with F-35A plus JDAM or SDBII, or even GBU-84. I'm fairly confident that would work, if topo-masking is favorable.

CCP will not accept a ceasefire on our terms, they'll attempt to wear us down and make us look ineffective, over the course of a decade if necessary, to make us give up and sit down, so they can play victim over the longer term, attack our morale. Not hard to imagine them prancing about in 2045 as undefeated victors. Better make sure we know how to defeat high-end everything using low-end weapons and F-35's best advantages.
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Unread post10 Dec 2020, 05:15

This as well ...

VMFA-314 Demonstrates Expeditionary Capability, Makes F-35C History

US Marine Corps; issued Dec. 8, 2020

Image
A US Marine Corps F-35C carrier fighter is arrested by transportable M-31 arresting gear at Twentynine Palms, Calif. The flight was intended to demonstrate the F-35C’s ability to land on smaller runways, allowing more flexibility in combat operations. (USMC photo)

MCAS MIRAMAR, Calif. --- Marine Fighter Attack Squadron (VMFA) 314, Marine Air Group 11, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing conducted an F-35C expeditionary operations demonstration at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center (MCAGCC) Twentynine Palms, Calif., Dec. 3, 2020.

The demonstration spanned over 1000 miles and the aircraft was refueled and loaded with ordnance within a half hour. It was also the first time that an F-35C executed an arrested landing on a shortened airfield utilizing the M-31 arresting gear, demonstrating the F-35C’s unique capabilities and displaying the Marine Corps extended flexibility in combat operations. “We may be called upon to execute expeditionary air base operations in accordance with the Commandant’s planning guidance,” said U.S. Marine Maj. Robert “Murphy” Ahern, the lead pilot for the VMFA-314 demonstration, “and this is something that hasn’t been done yet with the F-35C so we wanted to demonstrate it.”

Marine Aerial Refueler Transport Squadron (VMGR) 352 transported ordnance, fuel, and VMFA-314 ordnance Marines in a KC-130J from Marine Corps Air Station (MCAS) Miramar to MCAGCC Twentynine Palms, approximately 200 miles away. The section of F-35C’s then flew to MCAGCC Twentynine Palms where they executed arrested landings utilizing the M-31 expeditionary arresting gear, which is designed for aircraft carrier use but can be set up at an airfield of opportunity – from an island in the middle of the ocean to a remote airfield in the desert. “The M-31 expeditionary arresting gear,” said Ahern “is designed to be set up anywhere, essentially bolting to the ground.

Upon landing, the two F-35Cs taxied off the runway to a refueling area where they were simultaneously refueled and loaded with ordnance by personnel flown in on a KC-130J from VMGR-352. The F-35Cs then took off to a Yuma, Ariz. training range to employ the ordnance and returned to MCAS Miramar, successfully completing the demonstration. “None of this would’ve happened without the expertise of the ordnance team,” said Ahern. 3rd MAW continues to “Fix, Fly and Fight” as the Marine Corps’ largest aircraft wing, and remains combat ready, deployable on short notice, and lethal when called into action.

https://www.defense-aerospace.com/artic ... unway.html



Lay a couple of slabs and some mat and you're done. Another reason to love F-35C, just got to launch them short too. A straight bit of road would probably do.

You don't even have to put carriers in the front to get effects.
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Unread post10 Dec 2020, 05:36

ASLO (yes I know) here: mit links to photies:
https://www.3rdmaw.marines.mil/News/Art ... c-history/

https://www.dvidshub.net/image/6445840/ ... es-history JPGs
&
https://www.dvidshub.net/image/6446013/ ... es-history JPGs

https://www.dvidshub.net/download/image/6446029 (640Kb JPG) attached below cropped & resized
&
https://www.dvidshub.net/download/image/6446033 (600Kb JPG) etc.
"Photo by Cpl. Leilani Cervantes 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing  
U.S. Marines with Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 314 and Marine Aerial Refueler Transport Squadron 352, Marine Aircraft Group 11, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing, conduct a new expeditionary landing demonstration with M-31 arresting gear Interim Flight Clearance (IFC), on Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center Twentynine Palms, Calif., Dec. 3rd, 2020. This new capability allows the F-35C Lightning II to land on smaller runways anywhere in the world and ensures extended flexibility in combat operations. (U.S. Marine Corps photo by Cpl. Cervantes, Leilani"
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Last edited by spazsinbad on 10 Dec 2020, 06:12, edited 4 times in total.
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Unread post10 Dec 2020, 05:43

Its not aircraft loads or platforms that would be the limiting factors. Its runways. Take away Korea & Japan, where are the launch platforms going to come from?

Add Japan & ROK, how many F-35/22 squadrons based there? If they need to deploy, how fast can China shut those runways down? That boils down to dispersal/distributed ops/austere basing etc.

There are ~140 runways in Japan, maybe ~90 above 6000 ft, less above 8000 ft. Add ~3rd in Korea. Every of these have been mapped out by the Chinese with confirmed GPS co-ords. If like desert shield, the build up is uncontested, sure I can see the same result as Iraq. if contested, I can see how distributed ops, aegis, iron domes etc can help.

Shock & awe in desert storm didn't start until desert shield was complete. I still can't see how the US can achieve shock & awe with the current forces in theater. Otherwise the real equation is adding ROK/Japan and how fast the deployment a la desert shield can be completed. Fail to add Japan.....
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element1loop

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Unread post10 Dec 2020, 07:00

weasel1962 wrote: ... There are ~140 runways in Japan, maybe ~90 above 6000 ft, less above 8000 ft. Add ~3rd in Korea. Every of these have been mapped out by the Chinese with confirmed GPS co-ords. ...


A shortage of BMs and long-enough range CMs applies to them also. As does cumulative OCA.

So we keep repairing runways and reopening them.

Once they use their best war stock and targeting data dries up, runways are degraded but still working ... then they get Desert-Stormed.
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Unread post10 Dec 2020, 07:39

More likely the 1st waves of missiles goes after hangers, buildings. Then the 2nd wave goes after planes being parked in the open as they can't use the hangers...which wouldn't be an issue in distributed ops.

That's also why the focus is always on Chinese delivery first rather than the reverse that always end in complete Chinese takeout.
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Unread post10 Dec 2020, 14:48

Salute!

Perhaps we move the think tank and stegerie and tactical and war games stuff to the Mil forum and concentrate more on the Stubbie here?

Gums sends...
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Unread post10 Dec 2020, 16:02

Gums wrote:Salute!

So while we are talking about dispersal and such, "War Zone" had this today.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... y-airfield

As usual, the USMC didn't read the timeline. They are about to declare the Cee operational without waiting for sfwe version 5.6(a) or whatever. Dunno what the USN is doing, but guess the Jarheads can carry the day when next confrontation is upon us.

Gums sends...



Image

biggest coup since the USN declared the F4U useless and passed it on to the USMC LOL
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Unread post10 Dec 2020, 16:04

element1loop wrote:This as well ...

VMFA-314 Demonstrates Expeditionary Capability, Makes F-35C History

US Marine Corps; issued Dec. 8, 2020

Image



That pic is going to make so many heads explode :mrgreen:
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Unread post10 Dec 2020, 16:41

Gums wrote:Salute!
So while we are talking about dispersal and such, "War Zone" had this today.
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... y-airfield
As usual, the USMC didn't read the timeline. They are about to declare the Cee operational without waiting for sfwe version 5.6(a) or whatever. Dunno what the USN is doing, but guess the Jarheads can carry the day when next confrontation is upon us.
Gums sends...

DRIVEBY Photie: https://www.thedrive.com/content/2020/12/346g.jpg

F-35C takes the arresting gear at 29 Palms #2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_mu6Lsah0I

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Unread post10 Dec 2020, 16:58

:applause: Thanks to 'Gums' post above we have these tidbits of text 'bout HOW TO EABO (how low can you go - LIMBO!) :devil: :roll:
Marine Corps F-35Cs Make First Arrested Landings At An Expeditionary Airfield
09 Dec 2020 James Deboer

"When it comes to austere operations, the F-35C shows it can do much of what the F-35B can and more as the Marines gear up for a fight in the Pacific....

...Preparing the F-35C for EABO was no easy task. Under the leadership of its commanding officer, Lt Col Brendan Walsh, VMFA-314 chose Major Robert ‘Murphy’ Ahern to get the job done. Major Ahern began planning the event several months ago and had to get all the right parties involved.

First, the squadron was certified to do the “hot” reload while operating out of Marine Corps Air Station (MCAS) Yuma during Weapons and Tactics Instructor Course 1-21 in Arizona in October. Next, it had to get the clearance to use the M-31 arresting gear for the F-35C. This involved getting approval from Lockheed Martin and the Joint Program Office (JPO) to land within a certain envelope.

“This is the first time we have combined a hot reload with an arresting gear landing in the F-35C,” Major Ahern explained. “The whole point was to show that while, yes, the F-35B can hover and land on a prepared surface, for us operating with a larger wing area and more weapons capability added to a much longer range than the F-35B, we can do the expeditionary mission much in the same way the F/A-18 Hornet would, where you have a runway of about 3,000 feet and an MWSS that has the ability to set up the arresting gear. Depending on how heavy the aircraft are on takeoff, they usually need between 2,000 and 3,000 feet of runway. Now they have weapons, fuel, and way better range than the F-35B and can stay in the fight longer."

“Lockheed Martin and the JPO approved the envelope and were all very responsive to make it happen. We are about four years ahead of schedule from when they thought they would test these concepts. They kept it very similar to max trap weight that is seen on the ship, so the risk was small, so all of the engineers did their behind-the-scenes numbers very quickly. We came in at 150 knots at roughly 45,000 pounds.”...

...the first of the two F-35Cs were flying overhead getting set to make history as the first example of this variant to use the M-31 arresting gear. Flying the first F-35C was Major Ahern, who made a hard break over the airfield much like an approach to an aircraft carrier.

Lining up for the arresting gear, Major Ahern touched down a few hundred feet before the gear before catching the sole wire. Unlike aircraft carriers that use three or four wires, the M-31 gear has just one. With the landing perfectly executed, Ahern raised the tailhook and let go of the wire, while members of the MWSS quickly checked over the gear before the second pilot touched down....

...Both the F-35B and F-35C will provide the Marine Air-Ground Task Force (MAGTF) commanders with operational flexibility and tactical supremacy under many scenarios. But the roughly 7,000 pounds of additional fuel that the F-35C carries, as well as the ability to carry two 2,000-pound bombs compared to two 1,000-pound bombs in the F-35B, and now the F-35C's proven ability for short field austere operations thanks to VMFA-314's exploits, will make for some tough procurement decisions as the Pentagon looks increasingly at distributed operations in the Pacific."

Source: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... y-airfield
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Unread post10 Dec 2020, 17:50

2000-3000 feet TO, no catapult?

2XMK-84 takeoff on a 3000' runway. :shock: I guess instead of a go-no go, you have a go-eject or at best a no go of about 50 knots. A nicely simplified decision making process and any wreckage will be far enough off the end of the runway to allow for continued ops. Single-engine CTOL always reduces takeoffs to the basics.

(BTW, 29 Palms, lot less moisture than the Pacific, you known it never rains in 'Southern California'....when do they get to the JPALS part?)
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