58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2020, 06:30
by krieger22
NEWS RELEASE: An F-35A Lightning II assigned to the 58th Fighter Sq crashed upon landing around 9:30 p.m. today @TeamEglin. The pilot successfully ejected and was transported to the 96th Medical Group for evaluation and monitoring. The pilot is in stable condition. Cont.


NEWS RELEASE cont. At the time of the accident, the pilot was participating in a routine night training sortie. First responders from the 96th Test Wing are on the scene and the site is secured. The accident is under investigation. There was no loss of life or damage to civilian


NEWS RELEASE cont. property. The name of the pilot is not being released at this time. Please contact the 33rd Fighter Wing Public Affairs office @ (850)226-3876 or 33fwpublicaffairs@gmail.com with questions.


https://twitter.com/TeamEglin/status/12 ... 2463604738

Well, good to hear the pilot made it

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2020, 08:37
by Corsair1963
The 33rd was flying some of the oldest F-35's. Yet, don't know if that is true any longer????

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2020, 13:44
by Gums
Salute!

Must be some "bad air" around here these days.

Details on the 35 crash slim, and possibly due to keeping the site secure from people with questionable motives. The Raptor site is easy to keep secure, and latest news is the accident team is carefully maping the site and collecting wreckage.

I should have more details later.

Gums sends...

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2020, 18:57
by XanderCrews
here we go :roll:

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2020, 19:40
by blindpilot
Gums wrote:Salute!
Must be some "bad air" around here these days.
....
Gums sends...


Since you are there, you know that is always true. I flew more bad weather hours "solo, VFR" at Moody than the guys at Luke got, hunting down clouds with the instructor in the desert looking for their IFR time. We (Moody, Craig et al- and Eglin) would never graduate if we had to wait for "good air." I recall recovering solo from a VFR formation flight before being instrument checked, and having to lead the formation in instruments (a big no-no) because following the protocol would have killed us all (or at least me). Gotta love that bad air. There is definitely bad air down by the Gulf.

We'll have to see if that was a factor.

MHO,
BP

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 20 May 2020, 23:40
by Gums
Salute!

Before war stories of days gone by...
=====
WX was O.K. until maybe 0100 or so and we had a shower or two from an approaching front, and had another or two by noon.

One twitter or such pic shows wreckage near runway and on the base.

The best intell was at barber shop today when I had two months of hair sheared. It backed up the pic. Confirmed that the plane was on the base and near the runway.
This is gonna be interesting report.
=========================
BP is right on about wx and instrument flying back in the day. The folks at Moody, Craig and Greenville were appreciated by the gaining commands because they knew about IFR. Vance and Reese were noted for crosswinds. The west bases had bigger towns ( Del Rio and Laredo excused, heh heh), but they graduated fair weather pilots.

We had solos student pilots divert to MGM when a storm closed Craig for a bit, and no big deal.
============================
I do not have enuf good connections at the 33rd anymore, but will keep asking around.

Gums sends...

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2020, 00:35
by outlaw162
but they graduated fair weather pilots.


Heh, heh, probably true to some extent. Additional Wx story.

However, the T-38 syllabus used at Laughlin in the 60s started with a front seat 'dollar ride' and then roughly 10 or so instrument rides in the back seat under the hood completed with an instrument check, so you were fully instrument qualified before your first contact or formation or nav ride. Far as I know, all the T-38 bases operated that way, very smart. Don't know about Craig or Laredo with the T-33s at the time.

I must have flown 30+ or so approaches to minimums in the T-38 under the hood to San Angelo as a student and never saw the airfield.....first time the hood came back was when the IP took over at PAR minimums (100 & 1/4) and landed at the 'metropolis' of Del Rio. Hard to see fair wx or bad wx or anything under the hood and the intermittent vague glow of the sun alternating with shadow while maneuvering on fair wx days could actually be somewhat disorienting under the bag. :mrgreen:

Back to the F-35 on fair weather night :shock: base leg.

(BTW back then with 60+ students graduating in each class at 8 different bases, every graduate seemed to be 'appreciated' by the gaining commands, the majority of which were the poor dudes going to F-4 PSO back seat slots 'pipeline' to SEA.)

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2020, 12:04
by Gamera
Possibly off-topic, but WRT flying in bad weather, I once read this at a retired JASDF or JMSDF helo pilot's blog.

During a SAR mission in bad weather, the pilots of a JASDF or JMSDF air rescue squadron Black Hawk variant suddenly found water dripping from the ceiling of the cockpit or cabin.
It was relatively new, and recently delivered from the assembly plant.

Sometime or someday after the mission, the ground crew climbed atop the fuselage, and either splashed buckets of water on it, or sprayed it with a hose.
Soon, water again dripped in the cockpit or cabin.

The squadron thought: when they received the helo, they test-flew it in good weather, and didn't know it leaked.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2020, 12:19
by quicksilver
“...routine night training sortie...”

Am wondering ‘aided‘ or ‘unaided’...

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2020, 12:46
by madrat
It went down when a heavy storm was right over Highway 98 in the area. I'm sure rain was going sideways at the time. I don't care how high tech something is, he was flying in some crazy s@#$%......

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2020, 14:23
by Gums
Salute!

Not so sure about a heavy storm at the time of the crash. I am two miles from the runway on the north side of the base and we didn't get weather until after midnight.
=============================
RE: Outlaw's comments about training. Seems to me that UPT went with the instrument checkout early for all the planes after T-37's. I was in one of the last T-33 classes, as Del Rio had gone to T-38's before us. As he stated, we flew a dozen rides under the hood before ever flying an overhead pattern in the front seat. The good news was if you aced the instrument checkride then you had a great idea of where you were gonna stand when assignments were offered. I had already aced the T-37 phase, so felt real good that spring.
Going into interceptor training at Perrin, ADC made the T-38 folks go thru a buncha instrument rides in the T-33, but never soloed them. We T-33 guys got a ride to see if we had learned anything and then were signed off to fly target missions. So I was able to fly both planes, and had T-38 guys in the back seat on many tgt missions so they could log "hood time". Imagine two brown bars in the same plane on a dark, stormy night!! The Deuce had a T-37 instrument-style panel and was real easy to fly on instruments, being more stable but just a bit faster. We didn't see "flight directors" and such until checking out in the 106. The VooDoo was same as the Deuce, but you could couple the A/P to the ILS if you wanted a thrill!! I never saw a "flight director" until 6 years later, and that thing was a P-O-S, as the A-7D HUD guidance for ILS was super, and GCA's a piece of cake.

Gums recalls......

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2020, 16:44
by outlaw162
Am wondering ‘aided‘ or ‘unaided’...


Can I assume that 'aided' is Marine'ese for 'instructor chase' ? and 'unaided' means 'on your own' single ship ?

We chased student training night overheads in the A-7D (no 2-seaters at the time and pre-NVG)....you were pretty busy on the real dark nights, but could occasionally mutter a few words of wisdom to prevent problems from arising.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2020, 17:20
by quicksilver
No, sorry...with or without the use of night vision devices. There is a whole realm of unique potentialities in that...accompanied, of course, by all kinds of doom and gloom from the usual suspects.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 21 May 2020, 21:34
by madrat
Gums wrote:Salute!

Not so sure about a heavy storm at the time of the crash. I am two miles from the runway on the north side of the base and we didn't get weather until after midnight..

I'm a bit west of you, and what passed over us an hour before was heavy lightning and strong, shifty winds. The dogs were going crazy and thunder rarely scares them. I'd be surprised it would have missed you.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2020, 02:51
by Corsair1963
Eglin F-35 Crash Blamed on Landing Speed, but Software, Helmet, Oxygen Also Faulted


Oct. 5, 2020 | By John A. Tirpak








Excessive landing speed primarily caused the May 19 crash of an F-35A at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., though faulty flight control logic, issues with helmet-mounted display, the jet’s oxygen system, and ineffective simulator training and were all contributing factors, according to an Air Force investigation.

An Accident Investigation Board found the main reason for the crash was the pilot setting a “speed hold” of 202 knots indicated airspeed for the landing, which was 50 knots too fast, while the jet’s approach angle was also too shallow, according to the report released Sept. 30.

The second main cause was the tail flight control surfaces “conflicting” with the pilot’s apparent correct efforts to recover the jet after it bounced on the runway, a problem the Air Force said was a “previously undiscovered anomaly in the aircraft’s flight control logic.” The plane and pilot “quickly fell out of sync” as the flight computer commanded nose down while the pilot commanded nose up, attempting to abort the landing and go around. Sensing that he was being “ignored” by the airplane, the pilot ejected, sustaining significant but non-life-threatening injuries.

Furthermore, the helmet-mounted display was misaligned and “distracted the pilot during a critical phase of flight,” the AIB determined. The aircraft’s breathing system also caused excessive fatigue—leading to “cognitive degradation,” while ineffective simulator instruction meant the pilot lacked sufficient knowledge of the aircraft’s flight control system.

The 58th Fighter Squadron aircraft rolled after the ejection and struck the runway. was declared a total loss. The jet valued at almost $176 million as declared a total loss. The pilot had shards of the canopy and other foreign objects lodged in his eye and arm, and a spinal compression injury.

The report did not discuss corrective actions or flight safety restrictions as a result of the accident. The Air Force and Lockheed Martin referred all queries to the F-35 Joint Program Office, which did not offer immediate comment. Air Education and Training Command did not immediately respond to questions.

The crash occurred at the end of a night mission in which the pilot, an instructor, was coaching a student on air combat techniques. Upon returning to base, he set the excessive speed hold at 202 knots—which the investigation said is “not an authorized maneuver”—and a shallow angle of attack of 5.2 degrees, vice the desired 13 degrees. The pilot failed to disengage speed hold at the appropriate time, and there are no “audible warnings” for this dangerous configuration, the report said. The jet touched down nearly simultaneously on all landing gear with such force that the nose gear pushed back up, causing the jet to become airborne again. As the pilot tried to recover, the jet and pilot got out of sync due to “multiple conflicting flight control inputs.”

The control software “became saturated and unresponsive, and ultimately biased the flight control surfaces toward nose down,” when the pilot was going to afterburner and trying to raise the nose and gain altitude.

“Feeling confused, helpless and ignored,” the pilot ejected.

The investigation determined that three seconds of pilot input “was not enough time to overcome that saturation” and the flight control system failed to re-orient the aircraft for a go-around. The entire mishap occurred within five seconds of the initial touchdown.

The F-35 senses when its weight is on the wheels, and this biases the flight controls to keep the nose down. This aspect of flight control laws is not in the flight manual or syllabus, and “the flight control system is complex; there are too many sub-modes of the [control laws] to describe” in courseware. “Nevertheless, there exists a deficiency in the depths of the [control laws] logic and flight control systems knowledge in F-35A baseline manuals and academics,” the report states.

During the attempted landing, the pilot experienced a helmet-mounted display misalignment at night for the first time, with the HMD “misaligned low as opposed to high.” This caused the jet to come in too high for landing, conflicting with inertial landing system data and visual cues.

The pilot “fought his own instincts to push further into the darkness short of the runway to correct his trajectory,” the report stated. While crews train for HMD-out situations, they don’t train for misalignments, according to the Air Force.

Instead of easing workload, the helmet seems to have added to it in this instance.

“The focus required to mentally filter the degraded symbology, green glow of the HMD projector, visually acquire nighttime runway cues, correct and then set an aimpoint, fight the … darkness short of the runway, and monitor glide path trends, distracted the [pilot] from engaging the [approach power compensator] or slowing to final approach speed,” the AIB said. The “green glow” worsens due to feedback as the aircraft descends, and the pilot reported having to “squint through” it to pick up “on environmental cues.”

The jet was from Low-Rate Initial Production Lot 6—the only one from that batch at Eglin. There were some corrective technical orders for the helmet system, but they were not deemed urgent and required depot assistance to make, the report said.

The pilot reported that flying the jet was more “draining” than his previous aircraft, the F-15E. The report said the F-35’s unique air system, which requires a “work of breathing,” has that effect on many pilots. The pilot’s experience is “supported by emerging research” on the F-35A’s systems that “there appears to be a physiological toll taken on a pilot’s cognitive capacities as a result of breathing through the on-demand oxygen system,” the report said. The pilot reported that on a scale of one to ten, his cognitive degradation was “four out of ten on a routine basis.”

The report said flying the F-35A in instrument landing system mode is “not a mundane task,” which “could have been made more challenging” in the May mishap “by the reported level of cognitive degradation” from distractions, stress, lack of sleep, and the work it took the pilot to breathe. These factors could have contributed to the pilot’s “vulnerability to distractions” during the mishap landing, according to investigators.

On the issue of simulators, the report states that the systems “do not accurately represent the aircraft flight dynamics seen in this scenario.” In the simulator, the aircraft can be recovered after a hard bounce, and “two members of the AIB team were also able to land” in the simulator under the same conditions.

Lockheed Martin’s own report on the incident “verified the disjoint between actual [mishap aircraft] performance and the simulator model” adding that “the pitch rate sensitivity evident in flight was not observed in piloted simulation or initial attempts to match the maneuver with offline simulation.”

If the mishap pilot “did not have the negative learning from the simulator, he might have been able to recover the aircraft despite the high speed landing, which is why this is a contributing factor,” the report stated.



https://www.airforcemag.com/eglin-f-35- ... o-faulted/

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2020, 03:11
by spazsinbad
Jeepers. A lot to take in there at one reading - what struck me (no pun intended) were the issues with canopy shards.

Also noted that it still is no joke to be landing ANYWHERE at night then throw in the GREEN GLOW and it ain't easier.

I guess this aircraft was not modified from original config - cause of mismatch between sim & aircraft or just a mismatch?

Cannot imagine why landing settings were that way - I guess for an initial approach setup but not for the final mile or so?

I'm not understanding about the 'oxygen on demand' breathing problem, I'll have to think about it. Can someone explain?

ACCIDENT REPORT: https://www.airforcemag.com/app/uploads ... Signed.pdf (0.9Mb)

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2020, 03:23
by Corsair1963
Eglin has among the oldest F-35A's. Yet, I believe about a dozen are suppose to be transferred to the 65th Aggressor Squadron at Nellis AFB.


That said, sounds like the issue can be resolved with a software upgrade and additional pilot training. :|

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2020, 03:40
by quicksilver
I dunno spaz; the article is a bit of an unusual read. Hard to tell if it accurately captures what the mishap report said, in the context within which it was intended —to wit, the description of a landing 50kts fast as an ‘unauthorized maneuver.‘ Well, what if it was 10kts fast; is that ‘unauthorized’ also? The more important question is ‘why’ was he that fast. Landing 50kts fast in any fighter (or for that matter, ANY aircraft) is dangerous...really dangerous.

Other immediate question I have — was the landing impact so hard that it kept the weight-on-wheels logic triggered when the jet got airborne again?

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2020, 03:46
by Gums
Salute!

Funny, but I can't remember if the Viper HUD changed at night like the SLUF. The A-7 HUD display was a light grey at night. Maybe Outlaw can help here.

@ SPAZ.... Been waiting to see mention of "shards" upon ejecting. You eject thru the canopy in the beast!!! A ring of primacord or such goes around the edge of the canopy and supposedly enhances your "passage" thru the lexan or whatever. My understanding was the U.S. Marine Harrier mafia was responsible for that feature versus the Viper bubble design, which has had super results when departing the jet.

Talk about a tiring oxygen system, the VooDoo's was a constant slight overpressure and had to breath out harder than normal all the time. Supposedly, this was intended to be used with a pressure suit. Anyway, we simply relaxed and the oxygen came in all by itself. Then we had to forceably exhale. The coupla hours of pure oxygen resulted in delayed ear blocks as we purged the gas from our ear tissue. So we got used to valve salva in our sleep after night missions.

Not finished digesting the report, but the WOW switch changed a few things on the Viper flight control laws, as did having gear down. If you bounced the only change from the landing mode was the LEF's went back down versus 2 deg up and aileron interconnect function went back to normal versus "direct" command.

more after digesting the report, but I don't like what I am seeing so far.

Gums sends...

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2020, 04:36
by spazsinbad
For sure there is a lot I don't know about 'regular landings for the F-35A'. Perhaps they also will switch to a more automated landing as in the F-35C? Ya gotta luv landing at Optimum Angle of Attack but it seems an initial approach setting was left ON because of 'snakes in the cockpit' - neva good. Go around and try again but hey I'm OK. R U? :roll:

'gums' said: "...Talk about a tiring oxygen system, the VooDoo's was a constant slight overpressure and had to breath out harder than normal all the time. Supposedly, this was intended to be used with a pressure suit. Anyway, we simply relaxed and the oxygen came in all by itself. Then we had to forceably exhale. The coupla hours of pure oxygen resulted in delayed ear blocks as we purged the gas from our ear tissue. So we got used to valve salva in our sleep after night missions...." Description accurate for the A-4 PURE OXYGEN UNDER PRESSURE system (the Kiwis quickly changed their A-4K to one that included cabin air via a different mask (similar to the Sea Venom/Macch MB326H IIRC). The joy of midnight VALSALVAs. One could always tell who were the A4G pilots having flown that day. Every so often they VALSALVAed. 8)

My first A4G flight was in back of a TA4G as just a passenger with no idea really about anything so opening my mouth to acknowledge the front seat pilot was a shock. Nearly drowned in the pure oxy under pressure but from thence 'speak like a fighta pilote - short sharp whilst breathing out slightly. I can make fun of this situation even today - good for hangovers.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2020, 05:12
by marauder2048
quicksilver wrote:I dunno spaz; the article is a bit of an unusual read. Hard to tell if it accurately captures what the mishap report said, in the context within which it was intended —to wit, the description of a landing 50kts fast as an ‘unauthorized maneuver.‘ Well, what if it was 10kts fast; is that ‘unauthorized’ also? The more important question is ‘why’ was he that fast. Landing 50kts fast in any fighter (or for that matter, ANY aircraft) is dangerous...really dangerous.

Other immediate question I have — was the landing impact so hard that it kept the weight-on-wheels logic triggered when the jet got airborne again?


Per the AIB, he was an F-15E driver who brought some very bad habits with him. And he was tired.
And stressed out about COVID. Yes..those things are in the report.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2020, 05:40
by quicksilver
Yeah, those Harrier guys... :roll:

I will dare speculate and say that rather than ‘Harrier mafia’ ( :roll: ), a robust set of engineering processes determined that the best way to get a pilot out of a jet at very low altitude and very slow airspeeds (while meeting the most demanding set of anthropometric and performance envelope requirements ever) was to get the transparency out of the way as rapidly as possible. Seems the ‘transparency fracturing system’ in the canopy utilizes a det cord pattern to achieve that end.

Frankly, what design they use to make the ejection system work falls into the ‘who cares...as long as it works — successfully’ category. I don’t know anyone who sees it much differently.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2020, 05:44
by spazsinbad
A good description from the accident report in BOLD describes a night carrier approach: "...The MP described having to point into the black abyss, referring to how the area in front of the runway appeared at night . The discomfort for the MP was aggravated by the lack of visual cues at night and particularly because of the low illumination. The MP never cross-checked his airspeed or Angle of Attack (AOA) during the approach and touch down, meaning he did not look at the AOA and airspeed indicators to verify they were appropriate for landing [jeepers]. Additionally throughout the descent, the HMD projector brightness, or “green glow,” that projects over the Field of Regard of the HMD, was increasingly distracting throughout the descent despite the MP manually adjusting brightness levels on final approach...."

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2020, 09:15
by spazsinbad
There is a tonne of detail in the accident report along with a description of the 'landing technique' but SHIRLEY one needs to check airspeed/AoA every now and then? Meanwhile here is the description of the oxygen system which has a 'closed feedback' system which I do not fully comprehend making it slightly different I guess to my experience of a similar system.
"Fixation: is a factor when the individual is focusing all conscious attention on a limited number of environmental cues to the exclusion of others. The MP was fixated on the faulty symbology of the HMD at a critical phase of flight to the exclusion of a crosscheck of either AOA or airspeed...."

"...the nighttime ILS approach contributed to the over-saturation. According to the MP and other witnesses, landing an F-35 at nighttime is not a mundane task, and is more difficult than a nighttime ILS landing in some of the legacy fighter aircraft...."

"...the Mishap Pilot noted that he usually feels more fatigued in the process of flying this aircraft than his previous aircraft, the F-15E. It is known amongst the F-35 flying community that the oxygen delivery system is very different than legacy oxygen delivery systems, such as the one used in the F-15E. It is a closed, feedback driven system, such that initiation of inhalation and exhalation actuate the delivery of airflow to the pilot with a slight change in pressure. The pilot will experience, often imperceptibly, a delivered pressure of .01-.03 pounds per square inch, even when trying to exhale. This means the pilot is breathing out against a pressure gradient. Additionally, the feedback is initiated by the sensed change in pressure of the pilot by the system: each breath in and out is sensed and augmented by the feedback system. However, this augmentation is not instantaneous, such that the pilot is subjected to slight delays in the pressure change delivered by the system with each breath in and out. These features inherent to the F-35 closed feedback system cause many pilots across the F-35 platform to report feeling more fatigued than normal, when compared to their prior legacy aircraft. This insidious increase in physical demand can translate into a degree of cognitive degradation. On the night of the mishap, the MP reported feeling 50% more drained than a similar prior sortie, with a score on a cognitive degradation scale of a six out of ten versus his baseline of a four out of ten for a routine sortie...."

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2020, 10:09
by Corsair1963
This is perplexing as the F-35 has been reported over and over again. As so easy to fly and operate. That the pilot can focus on the mission.......


Is this possibly related to the age and early block of the aircraft??? (assuming that is the case) :|

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2020, 11:12
by spazsinbad
IIRC it is/was an LRIP6 aircraft so IIRC it had not been updated, especially HMDS view correction facility. Then throw in some other holes in the Swiss Cheese so that they all line up. You should read the accident report PDF as best you can to get ideas about how things can happen so that ANY aircraft can become difficult to fly. Some fundamental errors were made (landing too fast) by using a faulty technique - partly. You really should read the report. Many factors are explained in this report.

These days it seems pilots do not get so much flight time especially at night - it is difficult to fly at night compared to daytime flying. One cure for this pilot's problems was for him to 'go around again' but this alternative is not explained /mentioned. IF a pilot cannot look at KIAS once during a landing approach there is something wrong with technique.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2020, 11:55
by operaaperta
The issues with the HMD were highlighted in a Heritage Foundation report circa 2019, seems quite prescient now....

Unfortunately, the HMDS has not yet lived up to that potential. The daytime situational awareness and targeting capability that the HMDS offers is a game changer, but almost every pilot interviewed complained that the HMDS has significant issues that unnecessarily complicate otherwise administrative or mundane chores in a night environment.

Many of the tasks associated with employing fighters at night are considered routine—even pedestrian by the standards of the profession. Taking off and landing, flying formation, even air-to-air refueling at night are so well practiced that they are considered the equivalent of a walk in the park for the average fighter pilot. Hundreds of repetitions refine hand-eye coordination to a point where pilots are so comfortable with those tasks that they execute them while sharing their attention with other, often much more complex, issues. During combat ops, for example, many pilots will continue to listen to the active employment (radio) frequency in order to build or maintain their situational awareness on the battlefield while they are on the tanker boom, actively receiving fuel. That ability changes considerably when visual acuity drops in bad weather, or when a critical system fails or begins to perform below standard. Depending on the severity, those situations can test a pilot’s every faculty.

The F-35A’s HMDS was designed to simplify combat employment at night by blending the inputs from the night vision camera (NVC) and the DAS, along with the data normally projected on the HUD, such as airspeed, flight attitude, and weapons systems displays. Unfortunately, night system interface issues within the HMDS have made many mundane tasks so challenging that, in many cases, they become all consuming. A majority of the experienced pilots interviewed spoke of those problems, with some going so far as to say that they considered air-to-air refueling or “tanking” a near-emergency procedure. An F-16 Weapons Instructor Course (WIC) graduate with several hundred hours in the F-35A said: “Tanking at night gets my full attention and there are times where the visuals get really disorienting. Fixing the HMDS is an urgent operational need.” A former A-10 instructor with equal time in the F-35A went on to say: “On several occasions, the double vision the system projected on to my visor was so bad that I had to close one eye to get on the ground [land] safely.”

The HMDS has significant issues that unnecessarily complicate otherwise administrative tasks in a night environment, and fixing this system is an urgent operational need.


Source: https://www.heritage.org/defense/report ... -the-world

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2020, 13:27
by quicksilver
“The issues with the HMD were highlighted in a Heritage Foundation report circa 2019, seems quite prescient now...“

x2

Talking to pilots, I was surprised very early-on to learn that the optics are not pilot-adjustable pre- or in-flight the way that goggles have been i.e — IPD, tilt etc — for decades. Istr it had to do w weight — which I fully understand, but hope might be addressed in the future.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2020, 13:57
by Gums
Salute!

I agree with Quick about having the best system for the envisioned flight condition. OTOH, seems to me that a zero-zero system that has been tested with line pilots more than a few times would have satisfied the requirement.

Would be nice to have the flight control system Appendix that is mentioned over and over in the report ( not the magazine reference but the actual report I downloaded from that link). Just the mention of a "bounce" control law is interesting. So there must have been a few episodes during the test program, ya think? Viper "CLAW" changed as I said if WOW activated briefly, but gains and control surface movement did not change a lot until gear was up. The biggest change was going from airborne gains to ground/rollout gains. Basically, with WOW you moved the ailerons and stabs directly according to stick force. Just like a RC model airplane system - electric signal commanded servoactuator with no consideration of speed/Q .

My only experience with going back and forth was with a student putting in a pitch input just at touchdown or slightly before. So we went from landing gains to WOW laws and things got interesting. He was coming from a slatted "E" F-4 and had used his technique for many landings. Due to the Viper family model stick force implementation I could not feel his inputs and we worked it out after a debrief or two. Basically, don't move the stick a lot, if at all, in the end game. That was one reason I did not like trying to grease it on but accept a "firm" touch.

BTW, the approach from over the bay at night is like landing on a boat. A coupla lights off to the right from Val-P, but your basic black hole. Look at a sat pic. RWY 35 at The Beach was same, but we had a few more lights along the coast than at Eglin. It's when you appreciate a HUD flight patch marker to go along with your ILS bars.

Finally, I have a great war story about AoA verus airspeed for the approach. It may be relevant to this accident, but has a good lesson for newbies.
---------------------

Several things from the report I do not appreciate, and will address those later.

Gums sends...

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2020, 16:26
by spazsinbad
Always like to read your 'war stories' 'GUMS' so "PLAIN SPEAKIN'" away sir. Aircraft approaches are my bag. I've commented before about being a pain in the BUTT to ATC for my fascination with various landings, practicing them to their ad nauseam. That is one of the most fun parts of jet flying AFAIK that a naval pilot needs to be good at it would be obvious.

Thanks for the link to the HERITAGE Foundation report story 'operaaperta'. I don't recall reading the PDF - will do so now.

https://www.heritage.org/sites/default/ ... BG3406.pdf (0.7Mb) The report is online in full here:

https://www.heritage.org/defense/report ... -the-world

REPORT first cited by 'blain': viewtopic.php?f=58&t=55511&p=419427&hilit=BG3406#p419427
:roll: & I NEVA got around to reading it :oops: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=55511&p=420167&hilit=reading#p420167 :doh:
The F-35A Fighter Is the Most Dominant and Lethal Multi-Role Weapons System in the World: Now Is the Time to Ramp Up Production
14 May 2019 John Venable

"Abstract
The U.S. Air Force’s first F-35A fighter wing is now fully operational. The road to this point has been filled with insights on the aircraft, simulator, maintenance and logistical support, and operations that will apply to any service or nation flying the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF). This assessment is based on interviews with 30 F-35A combat pilots as well as senior operations and maintenance leaders at Hill Air Force Base in Utah. It follows a similar assessment from 2016 of 31 other highly experienced former fourth-generation fighter pilots, who were then flying the F-35A at two other Air Force locations. The collective perspectives confirm that, while the JSF is still several years away from realizing its full potential, even now, the F-35A is the most dominant and lethal multi-role aircraft in the world."

Source: https://www.heritage.org/sites/default/ ... BG3406.pdf (0.7Mb)

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2020, 16:58
by outlaw162
In situations where there is a large divergence between pilot inputs and the anticipated inputs, the flight control system resets in such a way that pilot inputs may have a minimal effect on flight control surfaces for a significant period of time.
:shock:

The term 'goat rope' comes to mind.

A bit of a logical fallacy when they reference the MP's simulator experiences of having landed, I assume intentionally, at 200 knots previously, as if that experience was in some way misleading and contributed to the (love the term) 'bewilderment' factor for this event. How can one even make a connection of this sort when he didn't even know he was at 200 knots when he landed? ....So the simulation didn't accurately prepare him for something he was unaware of doing wrong in the first place???

There just seems to be a number of extraneous and minimally relevant items beat to death here.

Maybe a 'talking airspeed indicator' like the F-15E had would have come in handy. :mrgreen:

(Re Gums: A-7D HUD green/grey, it had a knob that you could select a nite filter as I recall, but don't remember seeing grey symbology as such, just washed out green)

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2020, 17:12
by spazsinbad
'outlaw162' said: "...'talking airspeed indicator' like the F-15E had would have come in handy..." :mrgreen:

The Sea Venom had the 'looker' OBSERVER in the right hand seat for relaying one knot increments in IAS during a carrier approach. His view out front was even worse (for this situation) compared to the pilot view over the bulbous nose. Earlier this classic 805 squadron linebook entry says it all - a curved carrier approach almost mandatory like piston days of old...

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 06 Oct 2020, 23:22
by Gums
Salute!
and ot
Per Spaz wishes......
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Cross checks are the key to survival, regardless of the cosmic avionics and displays. Ask those French guys from AF447 and the Korean crew from the SFO debacle and ......

So I liked the AoA bracket in the HUD and the indexer chevrons on the canopy bow. Didn't need to calculate approach speed using extra fuel, a few bombs I had left over, and the beat goes on. So a rough gouge and compare with AoA, then fly AoA until touchdown. One of my SLUF instructors liked the Navy approach with zero or only a hint of flare. And I flew with that philosophy.

As a nugget, I had my dollar ride at The Beach after the short course in Tucson. Then a night refueling. All went well except the rain storm during the hook up with the tanker and getting a thousand pounds or so. Gotta admit that it was "interesting", as during my checkout in Arizona I only had one hookup in broad daylight. So head back to homeplate and acquire the ILS and slow down, configure, etc.

The SLUF flap handle had a few microswitches on it, and initial movement was inboard and then large movement back or forward depending on where the flaps were. However, if you "beeped" the handle forward or back or inboard/outboard after the initial movement you 1) stopped flaps at what ever angle they were, 2) beeped then up or down, or 3) raised them. The leading edge flaps came down or went up depending on the basic handle position.

O.K., speed coming down after lowering gear and then flap handle inboard and back. Speed maybe 40 or 50 knots above normal approach, but AoA low as it should be. Slow to get the AoA bracket centered and continue on. Landed and had piss poor braking on the wet runway. Decided I was not gonna stop and lowered the hook. Missed main barrier cable and snagged the carrier chain doofer on the overrun.

What happened was I had hit one of the microswitches on the flap handle and the trailing edge flaps did not come down all the way. The leading edge flaps allowed a high AoA but speed was also higher than with trailing edge flaps all the way down. My new habit of flying AoA without a good crosscheck of speed could have been nasty.

So those steam gauges are great to have, despite all the cosmic stuff.

Gums sends...

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2020, 00:17
by outlaw162
When questioned, neither the MP, AIB Pilot member (F-35 IP), or F-35A test pilots were familiar with some of the details of the control logic
(Nor, colonel, nor....)

How did the guy questioning them get this knowledge? Secret handshake?

Love this approach to training....

"There's no reason for you to know this, you wouldn't understand it anyway....and you'll never run into a situation where you need to know. Trust me."

I also like the report use of the word 'volatile' as far as describing pitch control at lower than optimum AOAs (higher speeds) in the PA mode. Not 'increased pilot attention required', nor 'can be challenging', but (gasp) 'volatile'.

(The SLUF flap beep switches were very useful for BFM. :D )

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2020, 00:36
by spazsinbad
Thanks BOTH. What an interestin' machina was da SLUF. Are all the 'caveat excuses' for the MIShap PILOT because he is of high rank or a nice guy or whatever? What will happen to him now? Snakes in Cockpit on Approach - GO AROUND EARLY!

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2020, 03:14
by Gums
Salute!

Tnx, Outlaw. After I left the SLUF, for my staff tour, they modified the leading edge flap configuration so you could retract them at higher speeds. Ones I flew until 1974 could lower them and beep trailing edge flaps up or down, but if you retracted them at a high speed they gouged the wing.

I agree about some of the terminology used in the report being unusual, even like slang. One phrase had the term "clueing" versus "understanding", "becoming aware", etc. The "volatile" expression also tickled me. I would prefer "sensitive".

@ SPAZ.... The SLUF was a delight, and had more goodies than any fighter/attack jet had until the F-35. 'course, the F-35 doesn't have a doppler like the SLUF, or the aux UHF, or the ADF feature we used on CSAR to find the survivor, or the two thermos bottles behind the headrest, or ......

Gums sends...

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2020, 03:25
by spazsinbad
8) :mrgreen: Was one of the THERMOs to piss in - t'uther drink? :devil: Did you ever get them mixed up? YECH. :roll: :twisted:

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2020, 04:27
by spazsinbad
Another story/look at the crash report....
Eglin F-35 crash resulted from tired, distracted pilot and unresponsive tail glitch, investigators find
05 Oct 2020

"An investigation has concluded that the May 19 crash of an F-35A Lightning II at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida was caused by the pilot trying to land at an excessive speed, and a previously unknown flight control logic glitch that left its tail unresponsive.

The report, which the Air Force posted online Sept. 30, also listed multiple pilot mistakes or factors that investigators said significantly contributed to the crash on Eglin’s Runway 30. They found the pilot was fatigued and, as a result, “experienced cognitive degradation” was also distracted at a critical point in the flight due to a misaligned helmet-mounted display. The pilot tried to land with the speed hold engaged and used an alternate cross-check method, and lacked some key knowledge about the fighter’s flight control logic....

...The fighter touched down with the speed hold still engaged — which is a prohibited maneuver — and about 50 knots faster than intended. It also came in at an angle of attack of 5.2 degrees, or 8 degrees shallower than it should have. At that speed, the pilot had to nudge the stick forward to touch down. This caused all three landing gear to touch the ground at the same time, instead of the rear gear touching first and then easing the nose gear down.

The three-point attitude landing caused the nose gear to bounce, and the fighter’s nose rose quickly and sharply. The pilot again pushed the stick forward to try to stop the fighter, which started a series of “increasingly violent” pitch oscillations as it bounced on the landing gear.

The pilot continued to try to regain control of the fighter for about five seconds, but the flight control system became overwhelmed by the quick succession of forward and aft stick movements. This flight control system glitch caused the plane’s horizontal stabilizers to default to a trailing edge down direction and stay there, nudging the nose down.

The pilot pulled back on the stick and hit full afterburners to try to abort the landing. But with the stabilizers pointing down, his effort to take off again was unsuccessful and he was forced to bail out....

...The pilot was fixated on the faulty display symbology during the critical phase of landing, to the exclusion of cross-checking his airspeed and angle of attack, the report said..."

Source: https://www.airforcetimes.com/news/your ... tors-find/

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2020, 05:42
by f119doctor
Just remember that this is the Accident Investigation Board report - Lawyers looking for fault (or coverup). The AIB is releasable to the public, as opposed to the Safety Investigation Board, where the USAF finds the root causes of the mishap to prevent future events, and is not releasable to the public.

I have seen mishaps where the AIB and SIB came to much different conclusions. Not saying this is the case here, but just remember that the two different investigation boards have different rules and motivations.

It is interesting to see the conclusion that they found a situation where the CLAWS was“saturated “ due to conflicting inputs and resulted in a PIO type situation. Somewhat reminds me of the YF-22 event where Tom Morgenfeld put the aircraft belly down onto the runway after an abnormal flight control response during a go-around during the post Dem-Val testing

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2020, 18:29
by Gums
Salute!


Great post, Doc.


I feel the safety folks will split cause on pilot error and confusing CLAW.

At least in Viper, the change to approach gains and aoa inputs was instant when WOW showed airborne. As I posted earlier, we did not have "bounce" mode.
-----------
P&W help at Hill in early days was super. I got my plaque on the wall.

Gums sends...

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2020, 19:04
by f119doctor
Gums wrote:Salute!


Great post, Doc.


I feel the safety folks will split cause on pilot error and confusing CLAW.

At least in Viper, the change to approach gains and aoa inputs was instant when WOW showed airborne. As I posted earlier, we did not have "bounce" mode.
-----------
P&W help at Hill in early days was super. I got my plaque on the wall.

Gums sends..


Ah, the not so good days of the UFC/EEC/BUC control system on the F100. Back in development, they moved the ground idle nozzle activation (Idle Area Reset) from WOW to landing gear handle down. If you bounced the landing with WOW control, the nozzle would close, giving higher thrust, making the bounce higher and the next landing harder. Taught to me by one of those original Hill FSRs who became the expert on F100 Trim & Troubleshooting. You actually learned what was going on inside the UFC hydro mechanical brain, which was quite amazing for its time.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2020, 21:13
by quicksilver
Reading the report, I experienced a little ‘cognitive dissonance‘ about the idea of ‘flawed logic‘ in the CLAW; not that there can’t be such a thing but, in my experience, and off the top of my head, I know of no man-made ‘thing’ in a jet that a pilot can’t (circumstantially) find a way to eff-up and thereby prove it to be ‘flawed.‘

I’m not sure what test regime would imagine such a circumstance as this mishap — before-the-fact — and thereby mitigate the risk of such a thing occurring in futurity.

Flawed logic? How about simple PIO? And how long has that been around in aviation?

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2020, 21:22
by quicksilver
“I agree with Quick about having the best system for the envisioned flight condition. OTOH, seems to me that a zero-zero system that has been tested with line pilots more than a few times would have satisfied the requirement.“

Considering that they don’t fly it, and that the design of the canopy is significantly different aft of the windscreen, I’m not sure why anyone in the USMC would care about what technical solution was chosen for use in the canopy of the F-35A.

I also expect that ‘frequency of exposure’ in the low and slow regime as well as the consequential statistical probabilities of survival are different for STOVL jets, hence the ‘det cord’ solution. But, once again, what pilot cares what the technical solution might be as long as it satisfies the probability of success? There may be somebody who does, but I don’t know ‘em.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 07 Oct 2020, 22:16
by outlaw162
How about simple PIO? And how long has that been around in aviation?


I've never heard of a stab defaulting to full aircraft nose down in a PIO in any other aircraft....and then ignoring pilot inputs temporarily whether in a PIO or not....which I don't think technically this was, a PIO that is, although it would have been if the aircraft had actually responded in that 5.5 second interval from 3 point touchdown to ejection. I'll buy that it was a stick PIO however, but without the aircraft response. He have been better off in an aircraft PIO, at least as far as a somewhat recognizable screw-up with a more predictable outcome. If you can saturate the FCS in 5.5 seconds in the PA 'bounce' mode it probably should have been in some 'test regime', and evidently was, as indicated later in the report. Just one of those 'it'll never happen' oversights.

The report even makes reference to the fact that the MP had landed the simulator a couple of times at 200 knots and that this control anomaly was not simulated accurately. Lack of fidelity in the sim compared to the aircraft when dealing with software iterations that can be rehosted is somewhat unusual in my Level D simulator experience. Yet it is said in the report that 'they' already knew about this flight control computer 'saturation' potential, and when questioning F-35A test pilots, they were unaware of it, and they determined it was not incorporated in the sim.

But this was a 'porpoise' from a three-point landing which is not necessarily uncommon in any tricycle gear aircraft, and the standard recovery is to bring the stick aft of neutral, hold it there, and go around....which he tried, but the control logic precluded that, and in his case, go-around in the 'bounce' mode was just the opposite of what hindsight indicates he probably should have done, just planted it.

Yes, he did eff-it up, and badly, but this full nose down logic exacerbated a simple go around. This FCS 'saturation' potential had already been discovered and evidently available in some document not available to line pilots, instructors....or test pilots, but evidently available to 'someone' on the AIB asking questions.

In fairness, the Harrier mafia never had to deal with tricycle gear porpoises. :D

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2020, 00:23
by quicksilver
“The report even makes reference to the fact that the MP had landed the simulator a couple of times at 200 knots and that this control anomaly was not simulated accurately.“

Unless the 200kt landing is part of an EP, why is he practicing such a thing? Perhaps it is part of an EP; stab EHA failure in early dev jet (AA-1 iirc) resulted in very high speed landing in FW.

I’d be interested in understanding the assumptions built into the PA bounce mode logic.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2020, 00:25
by quicksilver
“In fairness, the Harrier mafia never had to deal with tricycle gear porpoises.”

Ya think so, eh? It actually porpoises quite well, tandem gear, outriggers and all. Also does like a wheel barrow. I’ll find the video...

A nearly ‘all points’ landing is SOP for every landing. If you consider the gear geometry relative to the tail, you’ll notice that you cannot flare the jet lest you skag the tail. Be a little ‘flat’ and you’ll touch the nose gear first go for an e-ticket ride. Late idle? Power bounce; the later the idle the bigger the bounce. Land ‘conventionally‘? Imagine touch down around 160kts in a jet with a wing that wants to fly at airspeeds down to about 30, and has a tandem landing gear set-up where the main mount (the only part with brakes) supports only 50% of the weight of the jet. Don’t be late with power nozzle braking and don’t use to much thrust to do so or you will make like a wheel barrow as you scoot down the runway well above 100kts. While you’re doing that, over-control the NWS and swap ends to go backwards.

MTF...

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2020, 00:44
by Gums
Salute!

Hey! The dude left his speed control doofer set for getting to the IAF or wherever, then did not turn it off or go to some cosmic mode that a Nintendo kid could fly. Sheesh. BEAM ME UP!

Believe it or not, the Voodoo had a coupled A/P mode for the ILS. It did not control AoA or speed, just tried to keep the jet on the glide path amd centerline. I tried it a few times in CAVU to see how it worked, and I only had to use throttle for speed. The stick would move back and forth. left and right.

Something wrong with an A/P system that does not re-configure once gear is down. My Voodoo system required you to engage after gear/flaps down for the coupled ILS approach.

Gums sends...

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2020, 01:02
by spazsinbad
:roll: I'm glad the MP had put the gear down - imagine the kerfuffle otherwise - & not checking the approach IAS ONCE?! :doh:

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2020, 01:33
by quicksilver

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2020, 01:41
by marauder2048
My reading is that the AIB was going really out of their way to be kind to the pilot.

Example: The pilot claimed he only noticed on approach that his HMD was misaligned
but there's no actual evidence for it either before the incident or as a result of post-crash analysis.

It's also a bit strange: the pilot and the AFE personnel both agree that he had previously
complained about misalignment and the tester had come back negative but there are no
records. Given his sensitivity to apparent misalignment, quite why he only noticed it on approach
is weird.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2020, 01:49
by spazsinbad
Agree that my impression of the accident report the board appear to be 'kind' to the MP. Is he very senior/well regarded?

As for glitches: (not with an HMDS or HUD) things could work OK on the ground or disconnected from the particular A4G aircraft on the ground but in the air the combination of a particular aircraft and the faulty equipment was the problem.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2020, 02:02
by marauder2048
spazsinbad wrote:Agree that my impression of the accident report the board appear to be 'kind' to the MP. Is he very senior/well regarded?

As for glitches: (not with an HMDS or HUD) things could work OK on the ground or disconnected from the particular A4G aircraft on the ground but in the air the combination of a particular aircraft and the faulty equipment was the problem.


Yes. There's gross alignment and then fine alignment that's aircraft specific; the Gen III helmets (that this aircraft
was going to get in December) permit the pilot to perform fine alignment in the aircraft.

But it's also not clear from the AIB report that the pilot was complaining about fine alignment.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2020, 06:13
by XanderCrews
quicksilver wrote:“In fairness, the Harrier mafia never had to deal with tricycle gear porpoises.”

Ya think so, eh? It actually porpoises quite well, tandem gear, outriggers and all. Also does like a wheel barrow. I’ll find the video...

A nearly ‘all points’ landing is SOP for every landing. If you consider the gear geometry relative to the tail, you’ll notice that you cannot flare the jet lest you skag the tail. Be a little ‘flat’ and you’ll touch the nose gear first go for an e-ticket ride. Late idle? Power bounce; the later the idle the bigger the bounce. Land ‘conventionally‘? Imagine touch down around 160kts in a jet with a wing that wants to fly at airspeeds down to about 30, and has a tandem landing gear set-up where the main mount (the only part with brakes) supports only 50% of the weight of the jet. Don’t be late with power nozzle braking and don’t use to much thrust to do so or you will make like a wheel barrow as you scoot down the runway well above 100kts. While you’re doing that, over-control the NWS and swap ends to go backwards.

MTF...


Image

Image

And that's when one has all the undercarriage out in the first place :mrgreen:


Image

The all Mattress landing

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2020, 14:28
by outlaw162
Re: 4:10 and 5:24 and X's post above:

It appears one can avoid the porpoise phase by going right to the crunching impact phase or as an alternative, doing donuts after moving over to the grass. :shock:

"Yessiree, we can put this baby down vertically on a dime, but occasionally we have some trouble on 10,000' runways."

(The only time I ever landed on grass was in a C-172.)

edit: BTW I didn't know USMC issued mattresses for Marines to sleep on.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2020, 15:25
by XanderCrews
outlaw162 wrote:edit: BTW I didn't know USMC issued mattresses for Marines to sleep on.


They don't. We typically use Air Force girls for our mattresses

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2020, 15:45
by sprstdlyscottsmn
XanderCrews wrote:
outlaw162 wrote:edit: BTW I didn't know USMC issued mattresses for Marines to sleep on.


They don't. We typically use Air Force girls for our mattresses

:lmao: :cheers:

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2020, 19:11
by lamoey
XanderCrews wrote:
outlaw162 wrote:edit: BTW I didn't know USMC issued mattresses for Marines to sleep on.


They don't. We typically use Air Force girls for our mattresses


That must be the opposing force Air Force girls, as no Air Force personnel would be at the front line.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2020, 19:20
by quicksilver
I’ll be at the bar. :salute:

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2020, 19:35
by quicksilver
outlaw162 wrote:Re: 4:10 and 5:24 and X's post above:

It appears one can avoid the porpoise phase by going right to the crunching impact phase or as an alternative, doing donuts after moving over to the grass. :shock:

"Yessiree, we can put this baby down vertically on a dime, but occasionally we have some trouble on 10,000' runways."


‘Conventional’ (i.e. with the nozzles straight aft) landings are only used as part of an Emergency Procedure. Throttle not much above idle, no speed brake, no big flaps hanging down means you’re in the bad part of the engine response range. If one relies on the brakes alone you will easily use all or most of that 10,000’ and in the process heat the brakes up enough to melt the plugs in the tires (main mount). Land even a little long on your very shallow approach and it will be more than that. Power nozzle braking is used to get the thing slowed down enough to not torch the brakes but if you happen to have a fire light (ref that EP I alluded to) you may be compounding your problem because you’ve activated the reaction control system and are ducting hot 8th stage bleed air around the jet to the RCS valves.

See how much fun this jet can be?

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 08 Oct 2020, 21:33
by ricnunes
XanderCrews wrote:
outlaw162 wrote:edit: BTW I didn't know USMC issued mattresses for Marines to sleep on.


They don't. We typically use Air Force girls for our mattresses


:lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 10 Nov 2020, 20:19
by spazsinbad
BTM of first page this thread 'Corsair1963' posted this AFM TIRPAK article about the crash repeated below in 2 page PDF.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=56999&p=445373&hilit=Tirpak#p445373

PDF from: https://www.airforcemag.com/app/uploads ... Rev2-1.pdf (6.8Mb)

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 24 Nov 2020, 05:22
by spazsinbad
F-35 Crash Corrective Measures Must Remain Secret, JPO Says
23 Nov 2020 John A. Tirpak

"Action to correct hardware problems that contributed to the crash of an F-35 on May 19 at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., must remain secret, the F-35 Joint Program Office said Nov. 23. “Explicit details related to corrective actions have the potential to compromise operational security,” a JPO spokeswoman said, without elaborating.

Broadly, she said, the JPO participates in accident investigations and identifies “corrective actions and evaluates, prioritizes, and incorporates those actions into aircraft maintenance and production procedures.” She added that “safety of flight remains the highest priority in the adjudication of corrective actions” and said the 585 F-35s in service worldwide have accumulated more than 335,000 safe flying hours.

The F-35 is safe to fly while the JPO determines and implements corrective measures, she said. The JPO declined to comment on whether the government or Lockheed Martin bears the responsibility for the hardware deficiencies, and who will pay to correct them. It is unusual for the government not to reveal corrective measures required when a military aircraft crashes due—even in part—to hardware and software deficiencies.

According to an accident investigation board report released in early October, the F-35 in question crashed mainly because the pilot incorrectly set a “speed hold” that was too high during the landing process.

However, the AIB identified a number of other issues with the F-35, all of which contributed to the crash. Those included a misalignment and “green glow” of the helmet-mounted display, which both caused the mishap pilot to think he was too low on landing and made it difficult for the pilot to see the landscape during the mission, which was conducted at night.

Other problems included a delayed response to the pilot’s commands to raise the nose, flight control software that overrode the pilot’s commands, and simulator instruction that differed from what would actually be experienced in the aircraft under similar conditions.

Moreover, the mishap pilot—and other pilots—reported that the F-35’s life support system requires the pilot to work too hard at breathing, causing “cognitive degradation,” or fatigue during the mission, that is markedly worse than in other aircraft, the AIB said.

Making an instrument landing approach in the F-35 isn’t easy and “could have been made more challenging” by the breathing system, the AIB reported. The pilot’s report of finding the jet physically “draining” to fly is corroborated by “emerging research” on the F-35’s systems, the AIB said. “There appears to be a physiological toll taken on a pilot’s cognitive capacities as a result of breathing through the on-demand oxygen system,” the AIB found. [I don't understand this 'toll']

At the time the report was released, the JPO declined comment and referred questions to Air Education and Training Command, which was the AIB convening authority. But AETC referred queries back to the JPO, because the JPO is responsible for necessary changes to hardware.

The AIB said the mishap aircraft was the only Lot 6 airplane at Eglin at the time. A technical change order affecting the helmet had already been published, but wasn’t deemed urgent and required a visit to depot to install. Moreover, the simulator was found to “not accurately represent the aircraft flight dynamics seen in this scenario,” the AETC report said. The mishap pilot received “negative learning” from the simulator, and might have been able to recover the aircraft if the simulator training had been accurate—another “contributing factor” in the crash, the AIB said."

Source: https://www.airforcemag.com/f-35-crash- ... -jpo-says/

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2020, 17:23
by spazsinbad
F-35A Crash at Eglin AFB (5-19-20) Accident Investigation Board Report Review and Analysis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sof1k5DsIrs


Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2020, 18:04
by milosh
Black abyss? What about DAS? Do they use it during night landing? Also if he had problems why not active automated landing he already is flying using ILS.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2020, 19:45
by outlaw162
Also if he had problems why not active automated landing he already is flying using ILS.


The automation is what started his problems.

BTW: 175,000,000 garnished at 20,000 a year is only 8750 years.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 30 Nov 2020, 22:53
by milosh
Okey but I am talking about situation in which pilot don't see nothing, have problems with info so he press button and plane take over landing procedure using ILS.

That isn't nothing new, commercial jets can do that half century ago, and some fighter jets for example MiG-29 had something like, now it is getting v2.0 version of that system.

Also I don't get how he only see black ambyss? What is with DAS? Can it be used during landing?

Su-57 for example don't have DAS but have dedicated flir in left wing pod which is used during night landings.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2020, 00:27
by marauder2048
milosh wrote:Okey but I am talking about situation in which pilot don't see nothing, have problems with info so he press button and plane take over landing procedure using ILS.

That isn't nothing new, commercial jets can do that half century ago, and some fighter jets for example MiG-29 had something like, now it is getting v2.0 version of that system.

Also I don't get how he only see black ambyss? What is with DAS? Can it be used during landing?

Su-57 for example don't have DAS but have dedicated flir in left wing pod which is used during night landings.


There's DAS imagery from the mishap aircraft in the AIB report.
The "black abyss" is a claim from the mishap pilot. But the imagery included doesn't really support his characterization.

Auto-land is part of JPALS for F-35B/C and for the F-35A when the AF gets around to the expeditionary version.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2020, 00:52
by spazsinbad
Not sure of the point 'milosh' attempts to make. It seems the Mishap Pilot was not that current in night flying (what the USAF regulations are in this regard I don't know). I did not fly a lot at night so every night sortie was usually a HEAVY BREATHER! :-) Why the oxy supply system is a problem I don't know either. What one sees at night is relative. As I mentioned a 'black abyss' is wot one sees during a night carrier landing. All other landings ashore at night have a lot of ambient lighting - but with the pilot being distracted by the HMDS issues (and flying the approach 50 KIAS too fast) he could well perceive his impending death into the :devil: BLACK ABYSS! :doh:

As mentioned earlier by others a lot is made of peripheral problems before the landing. Current and future pilots please ensure you are not distracted when approaching to land - NIGHT or DAY. Landing is important - taking off not so much. :roll:

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2020, 04:15
by Gums
Salute!

RE Mover's Monday night video blog:

First of all, I was in contact with Mover a few years back and even got a free copy of one of his books. Both of us grew up in New Orleans and both flew the Viper. He uses the same phrases that I do and most fighter pilots. After the hurricane two years ago we got separated with comm and I gotta get back with him if he is still flying the T-38 support for the F-22 training. Some of his unit went to Langley and some moved to here at Eglin when Tyndall closed for repairs. So when I had 45 minutes I watched his video.

He describes the approach and bouncs and such like I would after reading the report and having flown the Viper with its control laws and how they react for bounces. As with most of us that flew fighters, he questions the high "auto speed" selection for such a high speed. He explains that the pilot was prolly trying to stay ahead of the wingie who was flying trail. So...

As a nugget, I was taught to fly radar trail at Perrin in the Deuce. We basically flew three mileds trail and did not point at the lead when he turned. We waited until his blip on our radar was "x" left or right and then turned using 30 deg of bank and rolled out behind. Slight adjustments were allowed, so we were complete automatons.

The problem with using speed to "help" or to catch up is ya gotta go real fast or real slow, depending on if you are lead or wingie. It is damned hard to make up a mile of difference using speed, so basic procedure was to weave. If in front, wingie turned away or lagged if turning, and then came back to 6 o'clock trail. You flew more miles but never slowed up or speeded up.

As Mover said, go around and come back when things don't seem right. And on instrumentconditions, I always let my wingie land first, even if flying close wing to make sure he had his act together.

More points can still be made. I lost two roomies this past week, and administer the mail group for our squadron. So many letters back and forth, plus where to sends flowers or donate or .... Running outta nickels, and Steve plus Blind can talk about that tradition we shared two years ago.

Gums sends...

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2020, 04:28
by steve2267
Sh*t, sorry to hear of a few more flying west Gums.

Guys, if ever paying respects to the gravesite of a USAF fast mover... throw a nickel in the grass, save a fighter pilot's @ss.

Not sure a Jarhead stick actuator or nasal radiator would appreciate the gesture, but perhaps the sentiment.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2020, 04:52
by spazsinbad
steve2267 wrote:Sh*t, sorry to hear of a few more flying west Gums.

Guys, if ever paying respects to the gravesite of a USAF fast mover... throw a nickel in the grass, save a fighter pilot's @ss.

Not sure a Jarhead stick actuator or nasal radiator would appreciate the gesture, but perhaps the sentiment.

Methinks you make a BIG LEAP there with your 'appreciate the gesture' comment. Gums has explained the nickel (perhaps not on this forum - I'll check....). Must be on pPrune however I cannot search there (I'm BANNED! :mrgreen: Lots of refs:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Nickel+ ... 6794952473

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 01 Dec 2020, 04:55
by steve2267
I only mention it because Gums kinda / sorta said to above. No offence intended. (Well, maybe a slight poke at the flying leathernecks or nasal types. But I'm fond of them to. But wtf do I know, I'm just a washed up echo foxtrot.)

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 18 Dec 2020, 13:26
by spazsinbad
2 page PDF from AirForces Monthly Jan 2021 Magazine Eglin Night Crash report with photo seen below.
“US Air Force/33rd Fighter Wing F-35A Lightning II 12-5053 ‘EG’ landing at Volk Field, Wisconsin, on August 13, 2019, while participating in Exercise Northern Lightning. This was the aircraft that crashed at Eglin AFB on May 19, 2020” USAF/Airman 1st Class Heather Leveille - AirForces Monthly Jan 2021

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 18 Dec 2020, 15:48
by Gums
Salute!

This doesn't sound right. I think the PR person means "the same type of aircraft that..."

We almost had a "crashed" Viper fly again in the early days - 013, if I recall. Guy ran outta gas and ejected very low when the country road he was gonna deadstick on looked worse than he initially thot. The jet landed by itself and worst damage was one landing gear. He walked over a rise and there it was. EPU still puffing and the strobe light on tail blinking! To be honest, I was surprised the T-bird plane didn't fare better a few years back.

Anyway, in the end, USAF decided to use the jet for maintenance training up at Lowry, seemed to me.

Gums sends...

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 18 Dec 2020, 17:50
by outlaw162
That's the way I read it the first time too. But....

Aug 2019 at Volk

May 2020 in the dirt

Those A1Cs are sharp and bear watching. Or is it bare watching? :mrgreen:

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 18 Dec 2020, 18:56
by Gums
Salute!

GASP. I am losing track of dates.... a lesson to all here: getting old happens quicker than you think

I only question why this picture referenced the later crash?

Gums sends...

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 18 Dec 2020, 19:27
by spazsinbad
'Gums' Did you want to see a photo of the aircraft after the crash? A photo before the crash makes sense to me though.

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 25 Dec 2020, 22:16
by spazsinbad
Perhaps a reason why the 'crash pilot' had been flying 200 KIAS landing in the simulator may be this issue from wayback:
"03 May 2007 - Due to control problems with right wing flaperons, the JSF has to make that landing at an exceptional high speed of 220 knots (350 km/hr). The plane’s undercarriage, brakes and tires are damaged...."
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10847&p=130830&hilit=internal+problem%2A+SAR%2A#p130830
ORIGINAL: https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/f- ... ems-04311/

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 26 Dec 2020, 00:05
by outlaw162
I wonder why Raptor CLAW in his rebuttal post wouldn't/couldn't address the specific need 'way back' then for 'Slim' to do a 220 knot landing at that time. Everything else was addressed. He referenced AIB/SIB proceedings as precluding an explanation of the 220.

Is he still out there? Can he address the real or perceived reason for 220 now? Controllability check results?

Is there still now an abnormal that requires a 200 knot landing? Flaperon response? Sounds very 'no-flapish' with barely adequate 'rons'. Although the bottom line here is the guy at Eglin didn't really intend to be at 200 anyway.

(In the case of severely damaged hydraulics, the good 'ole F-105 initially had a backup 'pilot' recovery system for roll control using the flaps only which was entirely electric. A form of non-software flaperon. You could maintain reasonable control to a safe bailout area. Operated with a little toggle switch on the right console. You could also correct an asymmetric flap condition with it. Done that.

It eventually was morphed to an 'aircraft' recovery system which used only flaps for roll and (gasp) pitch control electrically and theoretically could get the aircraft on the ground. Required a fairly high approach speed with only two surfaces doing everything. When I went thru the local F-105 check-out school at FWH, aptly named 'Ding Dong School', as the instructor came to this portion of the course he recommended I never use it. :shock: )

Re: 58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Unread postPosted: 02 Jan 2021, 03:14
by spazsinbad
This old accident comparison graphic at 750,000 flight hours is here for historical archive purposes a comparison to F-35.

The Air Force/General Dynamics F-111 Fighter-Bomber Today Nov 1978
http://aviationarchives.blogspot.com/20 ... today.html

https://www.docdroid.com/Lg0BVXf/genera ... -today-pdf (0.6Mb)