58th Fighter Squadron F-35A crashes during night landing

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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spazsinbad

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Unread post10 Nov 2020, 20:19

BTM of first page this thread 'Corsair1963' posted this AFM TIRPAK article about the crash repeated below in 2 page PDF.

viewtopic.php?f=22&t=56999&p=445373&hilit=Tirpak#p445373

PDF from: https://www.airforcemag.com/app/uploads ... Rev2-1.pdf (6.8Mb)
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Unread post24 Nov 2020, 05:22

F-35 Crash Corrective Measures Must Remain Secret, JPO Says
23 Nov 2020 John A. Tirpak

"Action to correct hardware problems that contributed to the crash of an F-35 on May 19 at Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., must remain secret, the F-35 Joint Program Office said Nov. 23. “Explicit details related to corrective actions have the potential to compromise operational security,” a JPO spokeswoman said, without elaborating.

Broadly, she said, the JPO participates in accident investigations and identifies “corrective actions and evaluates, prioritizes, and incorporates those actions into aircraft maintenance and production procedures.” She added that “safety of flight remains the highest priority in the adjudication of corrective actions” and said the 585 F-35s in service worldwide have accumulated more than 335,000 safe flying hours.

The F-35 is safe to fly while the JPO determines and implements corrective measures, she said. The JPO declined to comment on whether the government or Lockheed Martin bears the responsibility for the hardware deficiencies, and who will pay to correct them. It is unusual for the government not to reveal corrective measures required when a military aircraft crashes due—even in part—to hardware and software deficiencies.

According to an accident investigation board report released in early October, the F-35 in question crashed mainly because the pilot incorrectly set a “speed hold” that was too high during the landing process.

However, the AIB identified a number of other issues with the F-35, all of which contributed to the crash. Those included a misalignment and “green glow” of the helmet-mounted display, which both caused the mishap pilot to think he was too low on landing and made it difficult for the pilot to see the landscape during the mission, which was conducted at night.

Other problems included a delayed response to the pilot’s commands to raise the nose, flight control software that overrode the pilot’s commands, and simulator instruction that differed from what would actually be experienced in the aircraft under similar conditions.

Moreover, the mishap pilot—and other pilots—reported that the F-35’s life support system requires the pilot to work too hard at breathing, causing “cognitive degradation,” or fatigue during the mission, that is markedly worse than in other aircraft, the AIB said.

Making an instrument landing approach in the F-35 isn’t easy and “could have been made more challenging” by the breathing system, the AIB reported. The pilot’s report of finding the jet physically “draining” to fly is corroborated by “emerging research” on the F-35’s systems, the AIB said. “There appears to be a physiological toll taken on a pilot’s cognitive capacities as a result of breathing through the on-demand oxygen system,” the AIB found. [I don't understand this 'toll']

At the time the report was released, the JPO declined comment and referred questions to Air Education and Training Command, which was the AIB convening authority. But AETC referred queries back to the JPO, because the JPO is responsible for necessary changes to hardware.

The AIB said the mishap aircraft was the only Lot 6 airplane at Eglin at the time. A technical change order affecting the helmet had already been published, but wasn’t deemed urgent and required a visit to depot to install. Moreover, the simulator was found to “not accurately represent the aircraft flight dynamics seen in this scenario,” the AETC report said. The mishap pilot received “negative learning” from the simulator, and might have been able to recover the aircraft if the simulator training had been accurate—another “contributing factor” in the crash, the AIB said."

Source: https://www.airforcemag.com/f-35-crash- ... -jpo-says/
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Unread post30 Nov 2020, 17:23

F-35A Crash at Eglin AFB (5-19-20) Accident Investigation Board Report Review and Analysis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sof1k5DsIrs

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milosh

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Unread post30 Nov 2020, 18:04

Black abyss? What about DAS? Do they use it during night landing? Also if he had problems why not active automated landing he already is flying using ILS.
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Unread post30 Nov 2020, 19:45

Also if he had problems why not active automated landing he already is flying using ILS.


The automation is what started his problems.

BTW: 175,000,000 garnished at 20,000 a year is only 8750 years.
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Unread post30 Nov 2020, 22:53

Okey but I am talking about situation in which pilot don't see nothing, have problems with info so he press button and plane take over landing procedure using ILS.

That isn't nothing new, commercial jets can do that half century ago, and some fighter jets for example MiG-29 had something like, now it is getting v2.0 version of that system.

Also I don't get how he only see black ambyss? What is with DAS? Can it be used during landing?

Su-57 for example don't have DAS but have dedicated flir in left wing pod which is used during night landings.
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Unread post01 Dec 2020, 00:27

milosh wrote:Okey but I am talking about situation in which pilot don't see nothing, have problems with info so he press button and plane take over landing procedure using ILS.

That isn't nothing new, commercial jets can do that half century ago, and some fighter jets for example MiG-29 had something like, now it is getting v2.0 version of that system.

Also I don't get how he only see black ambyss? What is with DAS? Can it be used during landing?

Su-57 for example don't have DAS but have dedicated flir in left wing pod which is used during night landings.


There's DAS imagery from the mishap aircraft in the AIB report.
The "black abyss" is a claim from the mishap pilot. But the imagery included doesn't really support his characterization.

Auto-land is part of JPALS for F-35B/C and for the F-35A when the AF gets around to the expeditionary version.
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Unread post01 Dec 2020, 00:52

Not sure of the point 'milosh' attempts to make. It seems the Mishap Pilot was not that current in night flying (what the USAF regulations are in this regard I don't know). I did not fly a lot at night so every night sortie was usually a HEAVY BREATHER! :-) Why the oxy supply system is a problem I don't know either. What one sees at night is relative. As I mentioned a 'black abyss' is wot one sees during a night carrier landing. All other landings ashore at night have a lot of ambient lighting - but with the pilot being distracted by the HMDS issues (and flying the approach 50 KIAS too fast) he could well perceive his impending death into the :devil: BLACK ABYSS! :doh:

As mentioned earlier by others a lot is made of peripheral problems before the landing. Current and future pilots please ensure you are not distracted when approaching to land - NIGHT or DAY. Landing is important - taking off not so much. :roll:
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Unread post01 Dec 2020, 04:15

Salute!

RE Mover's Monday night video blog:

First of all, I was in contact with Mover a few years back and even got a free copy of one of his books. Both of us grew up in New Orleans and both flew the Viper. He uses the same phrases that I do and most fighter pilots. After the hurricane two years ago we got separated with comm and I gotta get back with him if he is still flying the T-38 support for the F-22 training. Some of his unit went to Langley and some moved to here at Eglin when Tyndall closed for repairs. So when I had 45 minutes I watched his video.

He describes the approach and bouncs and such like I would after reading the report and having flown the Viper with its control laws and how they react for bounces. As with most of us that flew fighters, he questions the high "auto speed" selection for such a high speed. He explains that the pilot was prolly trying to stay ahead of the wingie who was flying trail. So...

As a nugget, I was taught to fly radar trail at Perrin in the Deuce. We basically flew three mileds trail and did not point at the lead when he turned. We waited until his blip on our radar was "x" left or right and then turned using 30 deg of bank and rolled out behind. Slight adjustments were allowed, so we were complete automatons.

The problem with using speed to "help" or to catch up is ya gotta go real fast or real slow, depending on if you are lead or wingie. It is damned hard to make up a mile of difference using speed, so basic procedure was to weave. If in front, wingie turned away or lagged if turning, and then came back to 6 o'clock trail. You flew more miles but never slowed up or speeded up.

As Mover said, go around and come back when things don't seem right. And on instrumentconditions, I always let my wingie land first, even if flying close wing to make sure he had his act together.

More points can still be made. I lost two roomies this past week, and administer the mail group for our squadron. So many letters back and forth, plus where to sends flowers or donate or .... Running outta nickels, and Steve plus Blind can talk about that tradition we shared two years ago.

Gums sends...
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Unread post01 Dec 2020, 04:28

Sh*t, sorry to hear of a few more flying west Gums.

Guys, if ever paying respects to the gravesite of a USAF fast mover... throw a nickel in the grass, save a fighter pilot's @ss.

Not sure a Jarhead stick actuator or nasal radiator would appreciate the gesture, but perhaps the sentiment.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post01 Dec 2020, 04:52

steve2267 wrote:Sh*t, sorry to hear of a few more flying west Gums.

Guys, if ever paying respects to the gravesite of a USAF fast mover... throw a nickel in the grass, save a fighter pilot's @ss.

Not sure a Jarhead stick actuator or nasal radiator would appreciate the gesture, but perhaps the sentiment.

Methinks you make a BIG LEAP there with your 'appreciate the gesture' comment. Gums has explained the nickel (perhaps not on this forum - I'll check....). Must be on pPrune however I cannot search there (I'm BANNED! :mrgreen: Lots of refs:

https://www.google.com/search?q=Nickel+ ... 6794952473
Last edited by spazsinbad on 01 Dec 2020, 04:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post01 Dec 2020, 04:55

I only mention it because Gums kinda / sorta said to above. No offence intended. (Well, maybe a slight poke at the flying leathernecks or nasal types. But I'm fond of them to. But wtf do I know, I'm just a washed up echo foxtrot.)
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post18 Dec 2020, 13:26

2 page PDF from AirForces Monthly Jan 2021 Magazine Eglin Night Crash report with photo seen below.
“US Air Force/33rd Fighter Wing F-35A Lightning II 12-5053 ‘EG’ landing at Volk Field, Wisconsin, on August 13, 2019, while participating in Exercise Northern Lightning. This was the aircraft that crashed at Eglin AFB on May 19, 2020” USAF/Airman 1st Class Heather Leveille - AirForces Monthly Jan 2021
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Unread post18 Dec 2020, 15:48

Salute!

This doesn't sound right. I think the PR person means "the same type of aircraft that..."

We almost had a "crashed" Viper fly again in the early days - 013, if I recall. Guy ran outta gas and ejected very low when the country road he was gonna deadstick on looked worse than he initially thot. The jet landed by itself and worst damage was one landing gear. He walked over a rise and there it was. EPU still puffing and the strobe light on tail blinking! To be honest, I was surprised the T-bird plane didn't fare better a few years back.

Anyway, in the end, USAF decided to use the jet for maintenance training up at Lowry, seemed to me.

Gums sends...
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Unread post18 Dec 2020, 17:50

That's the way I read it the first time too. But....

Aug 2019 at Volk

May 2020 in the dirt

Those A1Cs are sharp and bear watching. Or is it bare watching? :mrgreen:
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