The Hidden Troubles of the F-35 [DefenseNews]

[blindpilot]

... Those old days of Apollo and Space Shuttle, when software was developed by a very small number of people for a very specific system, when stuff was done in thousands of lines of code, are never coming back.

That may be true, but I would take a group of Musk hired programmers using Algol and PERT charts standing on their heads, and hand soldering the new chips in, ... over any typical group of software engineers currently using the latest greatest COTS favorite approach if I was the one flying the craft to ISS.

And you know what ... I'll bet there isn't a single person here who would choose Starliner over Dragon if they were the ones going up. And the biggest reason that is true is Musk hires talent, period ... and uses diplomas and NASA/Industry system approaches as restroom resources. At least he pretends to treat NASA assistance with grace, but don't bet he thinks FAA et al brings anything to the table for Mars tomorrow. He's just being nice.

SpaceX, for example, is "coming back," in every way that matters.

MHO anyway,
BP

[zhangmdev]

But don't lionize SpaceX too much. It has its own special blunders. Demo Mission-1 Crew Dragon developed a propellant leak during a ground test, which was overlooked and destroyed the capsule instantaneously and completely. Subsequent re-design and re-certification pushed back its first manned flight for a year. That accident was not software-related, but costly and potentially deadly nevertheless.

[outlaw162]

...but don't bet he thinks FAA et al brings anything to the table for Mars tomorrow. He's just being nice.

The much maligned FAA. They don't care who or what table he sends to Mars. 'Experimental' has a lot of leeway with the proper signed release forms.

However, they are concerned about and for the 'burbs' in any flight profile where any wreckage might fall. Texas, in spite of recent indications, is not all tumbleweeds.

[XanderCrews]

...but don't bet he thinks FAA et al brings anything to the table for Mars tomorrow. He's just being nice.

The much maligned FAA. They don't care who or what table he sends to Mars. 'Experimental' has a lot of leeway with the proper signed release forms.

However, they are concerned about and for the 'burbs' in any flight profile where any wreckage might fall. Texas, in spite of recent indications, is not all tumbleweeds.

Yeah its f**king east California now.

[blindpilot]

.....Some fancy cars these days could be running on more than 100 million LOC. That is how incredibly bloated modern software has become..... Those old days of Apollo and Space Shuttle, when software was developed by a very small number of people for a very specific system, when stuff was done in thousands of lines of code, are never coming back.

Wrong. Watch the you tube video Sandy did with Elon. [ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAtLTLiqNwg ] Quotes on the Tesla AI self driving stuff -
"done by a very select group of hand picked talented individuals ... " "I incentivise 2 points for deleting a line of code and 1 pt for writing a line that is used." " I don't know how many lines the AI parts are but not that many, say a couple hundred thousand lines maybe?"

But yes we shouldn't Lionize SpaceX, but I bet everyone here will buy stock in it at any price when it goes public. The "Rapid Unscheduled Disassemblies" are an intentional prototyping style . One NASA used in the 60's and one SpaceX does without apology today. Musk budgets the RUDs (explosions) and only gets excited when they don't result in progress.

Tell you what. Buy Boeing stock, set up your millions of lines of ISO 9001 programming code, use pretty fancy colored paper and special fonts for your reports. I'll follow the SpaceX line myself.

As to the F-35, millions of lines, Lockheed product. Lockheed has always had little gnomes they keep in the basement(like Skunk works) and feed them pizzas to keep projects from blowing up in their face. But they have the same issues as Boeing ... except for the gnomes. And that's my point. Full disclosure, I do own stock in Lockheed ... because of the gnomes.

One of the last consulting jobs I did for Verizon ended the report with something like, "do whatever you think is pretty for the board and outside world, but DO NOT touch the gnomes in the basement! They are why you are still in business." (and yes I own Verizon stock too, ... because of the gnomes in the basement )

FWIW MHO,
BP

[zhangmdev]

The "AI", or Neural Network/Machine Learning, stuff is largely data-driven. The program is relatively simply, but it requires maybe Petabyte of input to "learn" the useful configuration. And most ML project relies on some midware like TensorFlow to do the heavy-lifting in the background. Those are open-source projects maintained by a community. The coding on the specific application side is light. It is all about data. Data collecting and processing is expensive. I talked about that issue in the AI vs Human Pilot thread on this site.

The SpaceX accident mentioned is

https://spacenews.com/faulty-valve-blam ... -accident/

The capsule was not a prototype. It was fully functional and finished the trip to the ISS and back. It was not intended to be tested to destruction on the ground. The plan was to test and certify the abort engines first, then used it during the in-flight abort test, in which it will not be destroyed either. It should escape and land safely. The booster will be destroyed. After losing the DM-1 capsule, they had to made a new one for the in-flight abort test, with re-designed abort system. It is worth to mention that leaky valve was put into the system because SpaceX's goal to use abort engines for propulsive landing. NASA doesn't need that feature, but the valve was still there, and turned into a failure point. After redesign, the valve was replaced by burst disc, which makes those engines single-use, eliminating the possibility of propulsive landing. Kinda like what often happens in the software development, obsolete and useless left-over from the past is forgotten then turns into serious bug hard to find.

[blindpilot]

The "AI", or Neural Network/Machine Learning, stuff is ...... Kinda like what often happens in the software development, obsolete and useless left-over from the past is forgotten then turns into serious bug hard to find.

All true, but listen to Elon's chat with Sandy. He scores X 2 for programmers who find and delete those very leftover useless lines. That is not exactly a software bloat approach.

BP

[doge]

https://www.defensenews.com/smr/hidden-troubles-f35/

The Pentagon is battling the clock to fix serious, unreported F-35 problems
12 Jun 2019 Valerie Insinna
..."The 13 deficiencies include:
• Supersonic flight in excess of Mach 1.2 can cause structural damage and blistering to the stealth coating of the F-35B and F-35C.

From the topic on the first 1 page.
The F-35C pilot Major Robert Ahern describes the F-35C's MAX speed as 1.6...! (@5:30~)
Isn't that a prohibited maneuver?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPPTG8AmX8I

How Good Is The F-35 Lightning? USMC F-35C Lightning II. Pilot interview-VMFA-314 Blacknights.
March 17, 2021 Military Aviation TV
U.S. Marine Corps Major Robert Ahern with Marine Fighter Attack Squadron (VMFA) 314, Marine Aircraft Group 11, 3rd Marine Aircraft Wing gives an interview regarding the F-35C Lightning II's capabilities and lethality at Marine Corps Air Station Miramar, California.
VMFA-314 recently preformed an expeditionary operations exercise with the M-31 arrested landing gear, this new capability allows the F-35C Lightning II to land on smaller runways anywhere in the world and ensures extended flexibility in combat operations.
So, how good is the Lightning II? Here is the answer....

Q: How Good Is TheLightning?

A[Major Robert Ahern]: major robert ahern a-h-e-r-n uh call cyan murphy.
before i flew this i flew the f-18 uh a through d really mostly the single seat so f-18 charlie and then previously the black knights we also flew the the f-18 a plus plus.
which was a little bit older version that had been upgraded significantly which is the last one we flew uh prior to having the f-35 here.

Q: you guys are calling this the most advanced fighter jet in the world is that right ?

A[Major Robert Ahern]: it is from especially from a systems perspective this airplane has the ability to gather and fuse information and present it in a way and share it in a way that has never been done before.
so from that perspective it is far and away the most advanced fighter in the world.
one of the challenges in general flying a fighter is being able to absorb and process information real time on the battlefield whether that's looking at the ground or looking for air threats.

and coming from the f-18 previously the difference was the the challenge was significant is the pilot working the systems the radars ew suite etc to to gather information and be able to number one detect things.
but also to process that information and share it with other platforms now in this airplane with the sensor suite we have the ability to process that information real time have it displayed to the pilot.
and then share that information with other forces in a real-time manner is unmatched.

and it from the pilot perspective it makes it so much simpler to make real-time decisions in the airplane. that we didn't have the ability to do before.
so those are our f-18s taking off behind us.
so we are a little bit quieter on takeoff than an f-18 but a little bit louder on landing depending on the perspective of where you are.
and to the max extent possible we do try to be as quiet as possible in the vicinity of miramar in san diego.

and that's everything from the approach and departure corridors we fly as well as the the times of day and night that we try to fly.
but a jet is loud so we appreciate that the the community puts up with us and occasionally we're a little louder than normal but at a we're as quiet as we can be the helmet that we have and the the ability to project information both day and night in the helmet and be able to cue weapons and cue sensors with your helmet and have that displayed to you.

it's a massive increase for situational awareness so if you've seen iron man then yes it could be compared to that level of situational awareness
and i don't think of it as much of a helmet as it is part of the airplane because it's the way we interact with the airplane.
it's uh it's a rush it really is um you know when i was a kid i always thought i you know someday i'd grow up and be a fighter bottle but it was kind of a pipe dream.

and uh getting the opportunity to do it and actually feel that you know for the first time first on the hornet and now the f-18 it's a rush and once you get used to it you kind of just strap on the machine and it becomes part of you and then you.
you essentially just execute with the machine as an extension of your own willpower and body and the way you're interacting with the world around you.

you know the joint program office you know whether it's lockheed martin or all the other uh subcontractors that have worked to create this airplane have done an incredible job not only getting it on flight lines for us to utilize but continually updating it and upgrading it and giving us something that is relevant real time ahead of pure threats.
that was a demonstration of what we call expeditionary advanced base operations.

and that is in line with the the commandant's planning guidance on the marine corps side for the ability to to operate well ahead of a carrier strike group or an amphibious ready group
and give us the the ability to from a small landing strip land refuel get more weapons on the aircraft and now launch out ahead of wherever the rest of the blue forces are so we have more options and gives commanders.
and end users alike the ability to penetrate deep into enemy air defenses and have the ability to arm and get fuel forward of friendly lines.

so they have 35 seas only at miramar in the marine corps and the navy has them up at naval air station lamar but we are the first marine squadron to fly them.
there are more than 10 but in the marine corps we currently own 10 of them here and they're all they're all here one behind me and then several behind you and we have something to hang here as well.
you know what do we bring to the flight and you brought it up a little bit you know how are we relevant to you know new pure threats.

uh what we what we bring to you know the joint force commander is the ability to get into a contested environment.
and not only support our troops on the ground but enable other joint assets 4th gen platforms etc to get into an area that they normally would not have been able to operate simply because we can penetrate that denied area and then we can enable them to operate.
we're happy to share the story of what we do and we're happy that we get supported so much by the local community here and the ability to showcase what we're doing not only here at the base but as we're supporting the larger marine corps mission.

so we we go up to about 1.6 mach. about 1.6 max a little over a little over one and a half times the speed of sound just a little bit past that so.
not the fastest airplane that exists but we we have other ways to get in and out of a contested environment.
it's the it's the overall combined effect of the low observable design of the aircraft as well as the sensor suite that we have that gives us the unique abilities that.
we have effectively what it does it gives you the opportunity to get closer and be lethal in areas that other aircraft cannot.

and then i was fortunate enough to be selected for the f-35c program while i was on my ground tour.
and then once i was complete after getting back from deployment with them then i went up to naval air station lamore trained with the navy because they are the training squadron for the f-35 charlie.
and then once completing that came back down to miramar to stand up the squadron. so i've been flying the f-35 here in miramar for a little over a year as we went from no airplanes to now our full-ups squadron strength of 10 aircraft.

it is and i feel very fortunate to be part of it and to be have to have been a black knight both in the f-18 and now on the f-35 charlie it's uh it's a very fortunate position to be in.

[XanderCrews]

The Marines will ensure its safe enough for the navy to bring in its "tip of the spear"

Tale as old as time...

[loke]

(Bloomberg) -- The Pentagon office managing the military’s costliest program says it may be several months before it can even say when the last and most critical stage of combat testing for Lockheed Martin Corp.’s F-35 jet can begin. The F-35 program office is evaluating results of an assessment by university software experts as to what’s needed for the final -- and repeatedly delayed -- combat simulation phase to get underway. The rigorous testing was supposed to have occurred in December, the latest missed starting date for the Joint Simulation Environment exercise once planned for 2017.

But Seal’s statement raises the likelihood that the testing process won’t be completed during debate on the fiscal 2022 defense budget. Even after the one-month test occurs, it will take an additional two to three months to transfer and analyze the data and then draft a final report for delivery to Pentagon leaders and Congress. The report is mandated by law before a decision on whether to move into full-rate production -- the most lucrative phase of the contract for Bethesda, Maryland-based Lockheed -- can be made.

Read more at: https://www.bloombergquint.com/business ... est-starts
Copyright © BloombergQuint

[spazsinbad]

IIRC there was a time limit for maximum speed. I don't know if this is limit is in effect nowadays because of any upgrade?

[madrat]

Limit raised judiciously by the amount of Crisco oil you generously apply prior to takeoff. That is if it didn't rain, the wind was out of the south, and the UV level was below Category IV for the day.

/tic

[quicksilver]

How about some of us start remembering what Valerie and others have reported in the past...

Jezzuz

[quicksilver]

“most critical stage“

“Critical” according to whom and for what reason? Tell us.

[loke]

The House Armed Services Committee has “enormous concern” about the F-35 fighter’s sustainment, and suggested Congress may cut back on purchases of the jet to let the sustainment enterprise catch up, Readiness subcommittee chair Rep. John Garamendi (R-Calif.) said March 19.

Garamendi, near the end of a hearing on the military’s organic maintenance capability, said the “huge problem” with the F-35 is, “we buy more planes [but] we’re not able to maintain the older ones, so the more we buy, the worse the overall performance has been. That is going to stop.” He did not elaborate about whether he intends to try to restrain F-35 purchases in the upcoming fiscal 2022 budget.

“The entire F-35 system is of enormous concern to the committee,” Garamendi said, noting that HASC chair Rep. Adam Smith (D-Wash.) “weighed in on this in a very big and important way, this last week.” Smith complained about assorted issues with the F-35, calling it a “rathole,” but allowing that it may not be an expendable program.

The panel chairman also told service sustainment chiefs, including Air Force Services Center Commander Lt. Gen. Donald E. “Gene” Kirkland, that “there is a very deep concern in the committee about the F-35 overall,” especially the possibility that key parts of the jet are manufactured in China, and therefore may in some way be compromised. This sentiment was also voiced by congresswoman Jackie Speier (D-Calif.), who asked panelists if they knew of any F-35 parts made in China. The service witnesses promised to get back to her, but Navy Vice Adm. Dean Peters, commander of Naval Air Systems Command, offered that there likely are.

“We track the main components very closely, and I don’t know of any main components that come from China,” Peters said. However, “as you go down the supply chain, at the third or fourth tier, it’s very likely that there are some electronic parts that come from China.”

Garamendi responded that “we don’t have an answer” about how to fix the problem. The issue of Chinese content in the F-35—both parts and software—was one of great colloquy in a strategic arms hearing earlier in the week.

In his opening remarks, Garamendi voiced his concern that the services aren’t properly resourced to keep sustaining older systems, even as preparations are made for new ones. He’s worried about “overly-optimistic timelines” for introducing new platforms, and not having infrastructure in place to keep old ones going until the new ones arrive. At the same time, he said he’s frustrated that the services “pay a premium for old technology that is less capable, not fuel-efficient, dependent on a limited network of suppliers, and reliant on obsolete manufacturing processes.”

He urged the witnesses to move out smartly in adopting new sustainment technologies, such as 3-D printing, the use of “big data” and predictive maintenance. He also urged them to attract a new cohort of workers for the depots.

“We must ensure we can hire and train the next generation in a timely fashion,” he said. Kirkland replied that the Air Force has numerous intern, STEM, and scholarship programs with schools in the areas around its major depots to attract new line workers. The average age of employees in Air Logistics Centers is 44.5 years, he noted.

Garamendi also said that he’d observed a lot of “blue tarps, inside” depot buildings, presumably there to block rain. He told the witnesses he wants to know what kind of repairs and investments are needed to get the logistics infrastructure up to par, even if those requirements don’t make it into the President’s Budget. “There are ways … to convey” that information, he told the witnesses. “I want the facilities modernized. I’m here to fight for you.”

Addressing himself to Kirkland, Garamendi said, “The Air Force is going to have a large number of new platforms, extremely sophisticated platforms,” in the coming years, some of which are “still classified.” The committee needs to know, he said, “What are your maintenance demands for those new platforms,” so Congress can help prepare the service to care for them? He wants the Air Force to provide an integrated maintenance plan within the next three or four months.

“We don’t want to have another F-35 fiasco,” Garamendi asserted.

https://www.airforcemag.com/hasc-cites- ... y-cutback/

Not sure if these are real issues or just politics?