The Hidden Troubles of the F-35 [DefenseNews]

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

ricnunes

Elite 3K

Elite 3K

  • Posts: 3473
  • Joined: 02 Mar 2017, 14:29

Unread post20 Mar 2021, 16:59

loke wrote:Not sure if these are real issues or just politics?


Like it was already told you a 'Billion' times or so, it's just politics...
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 7425
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42
  • Warnings: 1

Unread post20 Mar 2021, 23:37

loke wrote:Not sure if these are real issues or just politics?



Well lets see... We can't buy new airplanes, but we also have to divest of old airplanes but we also don't need as many F-35s possibly short term, but we also need airplanes that do things the F-35 does like Big Data logistics (but it can't be f-35s possibly) but we also have to be careful of the next new airplane programs that would also provide more advanced airplanes but could suffer delays that will make everything worse.

So we can't buy old, current, or future airplanes when we look to buy much needed airplanes. we need something as F-35 as possible in the mean time, but it can't be F-35s possibly...

What's not clear about this? :mrgreen:

Don't know if its been mentioned but reading the tea leaves and the CSAF bringing up the Gen 5 minus or 4 gen plus dream, probably just a sad indicator we are stuck in forever war. I presume thats what he is talking about if you listen to some of the details "muh ferrari" that we don't use since we don't play in the dirt with a ferrari... Was hoping had Trump been reelected those wars would have been further downsized, but he was not so 7 weeks or so later we have CSAF saying we need something "not 5th gen"

Not on the inside on this one, but thats how it strikes me. I could be wrong.

We might have been absolved of one of these "competing interests" had the current admin not been elected, but theyre determined. In May the peace treaty with the Taliban is supposed to happen. Still up in the air as to whether that happens, but I'm guessing not.
Choose Crews
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 26500
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post16 Jul 2021, 22:11

This has to be 'dearvalourys' favourite schtick - repeat repeat repeat repeat the old stuff ad nauseam pretending it's new.
The number of major F-35 flaws is shrinking, but the Pentagon is keeping details of the problems under wraps
16 Jul 2021 Valerie Insinna

"WASHINGTON — As the F-35 program inches its way through operational testing, the number of critical technical deficiencies is slowly dwindling, dropping from 11 critical deficiencies in January to seven in July. However, the exact nature of these problems will remain unknown to the public, even when the deficiency itself is not classified. The F-35 Joint Program Office declined to characterize the fighter jet’s remaining seven critical deficiencies, but said in a statement that it has identified and tested fixes for each problem. [whereisproblem?]

“Details of [deficiencies] — even unclassified [deficiencies] — are not publicly releasable because the information is operationally sensitive, and its release could be detrimental to U.S. and international war fighters operating F-35s worldwide,” said F-35 JPO spokeswoman Laura Seal. Seal noted that all remaining critical deficiencies are classified as category 1B issues, which represent a “critical impact on mission readiness.” The more serious category 1A problems indicate a risk to the operator’s life.

Lockheed Martin also declined to issue additional details on the deficiencies. :-( “We track all F-35 deficiency reports. However, not all deficiency reports represent contractual deficiencies, but instead may represent observations or potential product improvements,” the company said in a statement.

In June 2019, [see start of this thread: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=55673 ] Defense News published an investigation into the F-35 that detailed all 13 category 1 deficiencies on the books at the time — the first and only time a full list of F-35 critical deficiencies has been publicly released.

The program office confirmed in April 2020 that the number of critical flaws had dropped to seven, with only three deficiencies remaining from the previously released list of known problems: [I cite one of 3 only]

... On nights with little ambient light, the night vision camera embedded in the F-35 helmet could display horizontal green lines that could make it more difficult for pilots to land on ships. The JPO had intended to test a software update for the Generation III helmet to assess whether that could correct the issue with the hopes of declaring the deficiency solved in 2021.... [we know this has been fixed and reported with NUGGET PILOTS about to NIGHT QUALIFY Deck Landing]

[HINTs on the TINTs of GREENish HUE: viewtopic.php?f=60&t=56971&p=439770&hilit=green+glow#p439770 & viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223&p=426663&hilit=green+glow#p426663 & VOILA! for the VALOUR innit! viewtopic.php?f=62&t=16223&p=426640&hilit=green+glow#p426640 ] [4 page PDF attached]

...The JPO declined to comment on whether these specific deficiencies are resolved. However, Seal noted four of the seven critical deficiencies are expected to be fixed by the end of October, and another deficiency is scheduled to be fixed in early 2022 after shipboard tests. The program has not set timelines for resolving the remaining two deficiencies, which “are in work pending test schedules,” Seal said. [JPO could have said 'green glow' fixed for F-35C night DLs]

[then lots of repeat stuff again]

...Aside from the major category 1 deficiencies, the program is tracking 850 category 2 deficiencies — minor problems that represent a “possible impediment or constraint to successful mission accomplishment,” Seal said. Of the 850 minor issues, 165 are classified as “enhancements,” meaning they do not represent a deviation from the program’s requirements like most reported deficiencies. These features are typically seen as proposed future upgrades, Seal said."

Photo: "The F-35 program currently has 857 deficiencies, but only seven are considered "critical." (Capt. Kip Sumner/U.S. Air Force)" https://www.armytimes.com/resizer/Oxiw6 ... uality(100)/cloudfront-us-east-1.images.arcpublishing.com/mco/VZNPMINMWFBVJCOCOYNHO5MZPE.jpg


Source: https://www.defensenews.com/smr/hidden- ... der-wraps/

Pilots Complete F-35C Carrier Quals Aboard USS Nimitz [4 page PDF below]
New Technology in Helmet Eliminates Green Glow
SUMMER 2019 Commander, Joint Strike Fighter Wing Public Affairs

""The U.S. Navy F-35C program’s first Category 1 students completed night carrier qualifications aboard USS Nimitz (CVN 68) July 18, using the latest organic light-emitting diode (OLED) advancements for the F-35C helmet mounted display system (HMDS).

During previous carrier detachments, F-35C students without previous night carrier experience were not allowed to complete night carrier arrestments due to complications from the helmet’s “green glow” created from liquid crystal display (LCD) technology in the Generation III HMDS....

...The new OLED technology reduces green glow-induced pilot disorientation by only illuminating the active pixels and providing a crisper picture. All VFA-125 and VFA-147 Category 1 pilots were able to successfully complete their initial night carrier qualifications aboard USS Nimitz using the OLED updated HMDS. Category 1 pilots are newly-winged aviators who have no previous night carrier experience and have never flown a fleet aircraft. They are the priority for receiving OLED technology and it will eventually be provided to all F-35C pilots.

“All of our Category 1 pilots successfully completed their night carrier qualifications during the squadron’s latest detachment to USS Nimitz,” said VFA-125 Commanding Officer, Cmdr. Adan Covarrubias. “The improved Generation III helmet, with OLED technology, works as advertised and is on its way to being fully implemented into the F-35C community.”..."

Source: https://navalaviationnews.navylive.dodl ... er2019.pdf (9.2Mb)
Attachments
GREEN GLOW Night DLs Solved Students OK NAN-Summer2019 pp4.pdf
(850.8 KiB) Downloaded 62 times
F-35AvapourWear.jpg
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 26500
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post04 Sep 2021, 03:33

Nobody knows the troubles I've seen.... Nobody knows my sorrow.... <sigh>
The Air Force is fighting in-flight physiological issues but can’t end them, Pentagon watchdog says
04 Sep 2021 Rachel Cohen

"The Air Force has made dozens of changes to reduce the risk of flight sickness among airmen who fly five types of military aircraft, but says it can’t erase the problem altogether after more than a decade of studies, according to a new report from the Pentagon Inspector General’s Office.

“It cannot completely eliminate [physiological events] caused by unanticipated aircraft malfunctions or human factors,” the Sept. 2 report said of the Air Force, later adding: “All occupations have some hazards that cannot be eliminated.” [DUH - anyone wanna fly fighters?]

Those incidents — such as hypoxia, hyper- and hypoventilation, decompression sickness, trapped gas disorders, gravity-induced loss of consciousness, spatial disorientation and visual issues, and toxic substance exposure — have rattled the aviation community and spurred nearly 70 research studies of aircraft and airmen’s breathing systems since October 2009....

...The episodes can be disorienting to deadly, as in the deaths of four Navy F/A-18 Hornet pilots over 10 years that were linked to oxygen system failures....

...The fixes fall into six categories: guidance, training, testing, maintenance, new designs and development, and research. Most of the completed changes were finished within two years, but a few took more than three years to close out....

...The IG redacted information about the specific recommendations in its report, including the actions taken and when they were implemented. The Air Force has said it hopes to have all the changes in place by fiscal 2023....

...The Air Force has reasonable internal controls in place to ensure that it can effectively improve safety in the aircraft reviewed during the study, the IG said.

“The Air Force actions show that PEs are a serious issue and the Air Force functions as a team with collaborating partners to address a weakness in the fluctuations of oxygen levels in the cockpit to ensure aircrew safety across all aircraft platforms,” the report said. “Therefore, we are not making any recommendations.”

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/news/your-a ... hdog-says/

Audit of the Department of the Air Force’s Actions Taken to Mitigate Physiological Events
https://media.defense.gov/2021/Sep/02/2 ... 21-120.PDF (16.4Mb)
Attachments
PEsUSAF2010to2020DoDIG.gif
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline
User avatar

XanderCrews

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 7425
  • Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 19:42
  • Warnings: 1

Unread post04 Sep 2021, 15:19

spazsinbad wrote:Nobody knows the troubles I've seen.... Nobody knows my sorrow.... <sigh>
The Air Force is fighting in-flight physiological issues but can’t end them, Pentagon watchdog says
04 Sep 2021 Rachel Cohen

"The Air Force has made dozens of changes to reduce the risk of flight sickness among airmen who fly five types of military aircraft, but says it can’t erase the problem altogether after more than a decade of studies, according to a new report from the Pentagon Inspector General’s Office.

“It cannot completely eliminate [physiological events] caused by unanticipated aircraft malfunctions or human factors,” the Sept. 2 report said of the Air Force, later adding: “All occupations have some hazards that cannot be eliminated.” [DUH - anyone wanna fly fighters?]

Those incidents — such as hypoxia, hyper- and hypoventilation, decompression sickness, trapped gas disorders, gravity-induced loss of consciousness, spatial disorientation and visual issues, and toxic substance exposure — have rattled the aviation community and spurred nearly 70 research studies of aircraft and airmen’s breathing systems since October 2009....

...The episodes can be disorienting to deadly, as in the deaths of four Navy F/A-18 Hornet pilots over 10 years that were linked to oxygen system failures....

...The fixes fall into six categories: guidance, training, testing, maintenance, new designs and development, and research. Most of the completed changes were finished within two years, but a few took more than three years to close out....

...The IG redacted information about the specific recommendations in its report, including the actions taken and when they were implemented. The Air Force has said it hopes to have all the changes in place by fiscal 2023....

...The Air Force has reasonable internal controls in place to ensure that it can effectively improve safety in the aircraft reviewed during the study, the IG said.

“The Air Force actions show that PEs are a serious issue and the Air Force functions as a team with collaborating partners to address a weakness in the fluctuations of oxygen levels in the cockpit to ensure aircrew safety across all aircraft platforms,” the report said. “Therefore, we are not making any recommendations.”

Source: https://www.defensenews.com/news/your-a ... hdog-says/

Audit of the Department of the Air Force’s Actions Taken to Mitigate Physiological Events
https://media.defense.gov/2021/Sep/02/2 ... 21-120.PDF (16.4Mb)


There will always be people willing to fly fighters. Always.

Years back I had an aussie online tell me that no RAAF F-18 pilot would stand for flying F-35s because they would never trade 2 engines for one. I told him that was great, that the new classes of fighter pilots wouldn't care and we can move the F-18 guys to C-130s and C-17s, which have an even greater amount of engines for the now former F-18 flyers.

He didn't like that. :devil: its a gross oversimplification, but there is a bit of a built in sorting process.

People who don't like the new stuff or new rules leave when their hitch is up.

People who don't care stay

people who don't like it but go with the company line anyway stay and move up through the ranks to become company men

its an interesting Idea that the people who achieve the highest ranks in the military are not the best leaders, they are simply the best at a never ending game of conformity

Anywho, you should see some of the physiological effects that other military jobs suffer, and they are not nearly as fun as being a fighter pilot, much darker futures as well
Choose Crews
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 26500
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post04 Sep 2021, 16:04

My little ditty (song lyrics) was a bit 'sarcastic' in reference to the thread title (I should have made that clear I guess). For me as a long retired ex-A4G pilot (which aircraft was regarded as a 'poor mans fleet defence fighter' as it was used by USN in the '60s, the job certainly had a few hazards, much like most military jobs, perhaps a few jobs have more danger than others. It has been my contention either on this thread or others related to the PE episodes, that to me, the problem was there was some lack of knowledge / training about the oxygen issues and how to deal with them, especially for foreign pilots flying the F-35A in the USA. However if examined closely my idea could be wrong now with more detail, some of which has been thoughtfully redacted in the IG report. So I refer to the many stories over the last several years about PEs. That the flying instructors had to go on strike over the issue really got the brass moving to solve it all, the USN included.

Anyhoo in my experience (not in combat however) we were trained well for the hazards. While ten of the twenty aircraft were lost in various ways over their time (most long after I had left the RAN FAA) only two pilots died in their A4Gs, with one cause completely unknown. With one engine the A4G suffered failures from various causes in some of the losses. The ejection seat worked well despite later criticisms of it online I have read. I'm guessing some problems with the engine / ejection seat were fixed over the long life of the aircraft in various variants and other services, especially the MARINES.

There were so few A4G Skyhawks that we referred to them by their SIDE NUMBER, last loss (889) was the first loss when the catapult failed, pilot attempted to eject however he was lucky because out of envelope the ejection seat failed & he survived the subsequent swim out of the aircraft underneath the ship with propellors churning over his sinking airframe.

870 engine failure - pilot ejects OK
872 midair collision - pilot dead
873 engine failure - pilot ejects OK
875 engine failure - pilot ejects OK
878 engine failure - pilot ejects OK
879 unknown cause - pilot dead
885 catapult failure - pilot ejects OK
886 rolled over side during a storm
888 arrest wire fails - pilot ejects OK
889 catapult failure - pilot survives
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

optimist

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1480
  • Joined: 20 Nov 2014, 03:34
  • Location: australia

Unread post04 Sep 2021, 17:11

XanderCrews wrote:There will always be people willing to fly fighters. Always.

Years back I had an aussie online tell me that no RAAF F-18 pilot would stand for flying F-35s because they would never trade 2 engines for one. I told him that was great, that the new classes of fighter pilots wouldn't care and we can move the F-18 guys to C-130s and C-17s, which have an even greater amount of engines for the now former F-18 flyers.

He didn't like that. :devil: its a gross oversimplification, but there is a bit of a built in sorting process.

People who don't like the new stuff or new rules leave when their hitch is up.

People who don't care stay

people who don't like it but go with the company line anyway stay and move up through the ranks to become company men

its an interesting Idea that the people who achieve the highest ranks in the military are not the best leaders, they are simply the best at a never ending game of conformity

Anywho, you should see some of the physiological effects that other military jobs suffer, and they are not nearly as fun as being a fighter pilot, much darker futures as well

I agree with your point, but our Chief of Army between 2001 and 2014 wasn't the best example of conformity. Some walk their own path.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cate_McGregor
Aussie fanboy
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 26500
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post08 Sep 2021, 13:34

It puzzles me why the F-35 is singled out, highlighting the incredible scrutiny the F-35 program receives time & again.
Watchdog: Air Force is Tackling In-flight Physiological Issues But Can’t Fix Them All
07 Sep 2021 Greg Hadley

"The Air Force is working to improve safety and reduce pilot physiological events in some of the aircraft most commonly cited for those issues, but the service can do only so much to reduce risk due to human error and the “hazards inherent to the aviation occupation,” a new report from the Defense Department’s Inspector General states.

That assessment stands in contrast to what Col. Mark Schmidt, then-lead of the Air Force Physiological Episodes Action Team, told Air Force Magazine in December 2020, saying, “the objective is to drive physiological episodes to zero.”...

...The report, released Sept. 2, states that the Air Force has managed to close 47 of 79 recommendations resulting from investigations of mishaps to reduce physiological events in the four aircraft, while also conducting 67 research studies since 2010 on the topic....

...The inspector general’s report did note that “because the T‑6A Texan II is the first aircraft flown by Air Force aircrew, the nerves of the aircrew could be a factor in the increase of reported” events....

...In addition to fixing issues with the aircraft, the DOD IG’s report found that the Air Force has implemented training to help pilots and aircrew identify and prepare for physiological events, starting with Undergraduate Flying Training but including periodic refreshers.

While the inspector general’s office offered no new recommendations as a result of its audit, the issue of physiological events is unlikely to die down anytime soon. In its markup of the 2022 National Defense Authorization Act, the House Armed Services tactical air and land forces subcommittee included a provision requiring the Defense Department to investigate issues and compile a report on the pilot breathing system of the F-35. That requirement came just a few months after NASA conducted its own study on pilot breathing issues, mostly in the F-15 and F/A-18, but also in the F-35.

After just three reported physiological events for the fifth-generation fighter during its first four years flying in the Air Force, there have been at least three events in the F-35 every year since, according to the DOD audit."

Photo: "Student pilots undergo altitude chamber training May 18, 2021, at Laughlin Air Force Base, Texas. The altitude chamber is one of the first steps of training for all new pilots and aircrew to demonstrate and know the symptoms of hypoxia. Air Force photo by Airman 1st Class David Phaff." https://www.airforcemag.com/app/uploads ... poxia.jpeg


Source: https://www.airforcemag.com/watchdog-ai ... -them-all/
Attachments
AltitudeTrainingChamberUSAF2021.jpg
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline

optimist

Elite 1K

Elite 1K

  • Posts: 1480
  • Joined: 20 Nov 2014, 03:34
  • Location: australia

Unread post08 Sep 2021, 13:54

The plane they love to hate. It's a guaranteed audience. F-35 - 28 events..doom and gloom... If the story is about the T-6A trainer with 323 events. No one would click on it, to read it.
Aussie fanboy
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 26500
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post08 Sep 2021, 14:14

It was more 'why Congress (over the recent years not just now) singles out the F-35 when other aircraft are whatever bad'.
A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Offline
User avatar

spazsinbad

Elite 5K

Elite 5K

  • Posts: 26500
  • Joined: 05 May 2009, 21:31
  • Location: ɐıןɐɹʇsn∀¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • Warnings: -2

Unread post11 Oct 2021, 21:35

In previous page there is a long video & text from it by Major Ahern USMC about the F-35 & F-35C in VMFA-314 - more.

What's it like to Fly an F-35? Major Ahern USMC VMFA-314 F-35Cs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DXdoThITkm4

A4G Skyhawk: www.faaaa.asn.au/spazsinbad-a4g/ & www.youtube.com/channel/UCwqC_s6gcCVvG7NOge3qfAQ/videos?view_as=subscriber
Previous

Return to General F-35 Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests