F-35-Constructive Criticism?

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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spazsinbad

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Unread post28 Sep 2017, 11:54

Advanced Search [top of web page] the F-35 forum for whatever words interest you. One way that is efficient would be to search using 'network' (without the ' ' marks). Then search the search results with another word such as 'link' and then if a lot of results search those and so on and on if necessary....

Network-Centric Warfare is the way of the future and there are many many references to this concept old & even today:

viewtopic.php?f=61&t=52650&p=377252&hilit=giant#p377252

A graphic example from: http://www.sldinfo.com/wp-content/uploa ... h-2016.pdf [substitute/add F-35As etc]

Search using 'jericho' then search results using 'dawn':
viewtopic.php?f=58&t=23043&p=363717&hilit=jericho+dawn#p363717
&/OR:
viewtopic.php?f=62&t=52823&p=362901&hilit=jericho+dawn#p362901
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Unread post28 Sep 2017, 12:15

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SpudmanWP

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Unread post28 Sep 2017, 15:53

Much like the Internet, a "combat cloud" is comprised of multiple subnets where the can talk to each other using backbone assets.


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wrightwing

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Unread post28 Sep 2017, 15:55

juretrn wrote:
>I don't think everyone will have the benefit of the "combat cloud" as they call it; not on their own - at least if they (some smaller airforce like RNOAF or the Danish AF...) do some operations on their own. It took the US decades to develop and implement such networks.
>I was thinking something along the lines of higher speed and altitude, probably bigger radar aperture.
>Of course some internal carry is better than none, that's obvious. Then again, the F-22 (example) carries 6+2 missiles internally.
Those are just my non-educated opinions, of course.

-under what scenario do you see the Danish or Norwegian air forces operating unilaterally, without having full NATO assets available?
-how fast do you believe the Su-57/J-20 will be flying, 95% of the time? Countless pilots have said that the most important capabilities of the F-22 aren't speed/altitude/agility, so much as situational awareness and signature reduction. The F-35 is equal or superior in both of these categories. The Su-57/J-20 aren't even in the same class.
-aperture size alone doesn't guarantee an advantage. The F-35 has more T/R modules than the Su-57. It also has better output power per module, gain/sensitivity, signal:noise ratio, etc...
-you still haven't really given a good comparison with regard to internal payloads. Only 2 operational fighters have internal payloads at this time, and of the 2, the F-35 can carry larger ordnance/higher payload. The F-22 is limited to 1000lb JDAMs, and SDB I. The F-35 can carry SDB I/II, 1000lb JDAMs, 2000lb JDAMs, JSM, JSOW/JSOW-ER, AARGM/AARGM-ER, SOM-J, Brimstone, etc.... internally.
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Unread post28 Sep 2017, 18:00

A couple of things come to mind that still plague us to this day.

ALIS - The modules within ALIS (mainly CMMS) have proven very difficult to work with and lack the features us maintainers would like to see. Capability creep is now in full swing with ALIS. We need it to do more because we didn't articulate what we wanted it to do to a sufficient level of detail in the early days.

PHM - We didn't pay for the lines of code envisioned that would have provided true PHM (diagnostic and prognostic capability). To make matters worse, when we failed to fund PHM, we didn't connect dots and recognize that we would now need to purchase schematics and troubleshooting guides to reliably fix jets. PHM is now getting better but has a ways to go.

Acquisitions - I think we did a great job with aircraft capability. We did a horrible job with everything else. Far too vague in regard to ALIS, training courses, spare parts, the list goes on. Lockheed did what a business should do. They took a vague requirement (i.e. "we need F-35 training") and came up with a product that increased their bottom line. I don't fault Lockheed one bit.

Public relations - A couple of you guys hit on this and are spot on. Nobody envisioned the amount of negative press the F-35 would get. The JPO, LM, and DoD all share blame. It's a runaway train now. Our performance at Red Flag was widely shunned by bloggers and ancient acolytes as "military people instructed to give praise." The only thing that will get us out of this media quagmire is combat performance.

Jet is still going to be leaps and bounds better than my other baby (F-16) for both pilots and for guys like me on the ground.
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ricnunes

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Unread post28 Sep 2017, 20:26

spazsinbad wrote:Advanced Search [top of web page] the F-35 forum for whatever words interest you. One way that is efficient would be to search using 'network' (without the ' ' marks). Then search the search results with another word such as 'link' and then if a lot of results search those and so on and on if necessary....



LOL :mrgreen:

Also "funny/interesting" is that by typing "F-35 Link 16" (without the quotes) on Google, the first link of all that appeared to me was this:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -t-435790/

Where anyone can read the following:
Today, the F-22’s Link 16 network can only receive data from the F-35. The JSF [a.k.a. F-35] can both transmit and receive data with other Link 16 legacy aircraft including F-16, F-15 and other NATO aircraft, Brig Gen Scott Pleus, director of the F-35 Integration office tells FlightGlobal.


But in case flightglobal isn't enough or "official enough", I would also like to add to the other documents already posted here an official datasheet about the F-35 CNI (Communications, Navigation and Identification) from Northrop Grumman which is the system's (CNI) designer and developer. This datasheet can be downloaded here:
http://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabili ... atasht.pdf

In the datasheet above anyone can read the following:
Key Functions
• AM, VHF, UHF AM
– UHF FM, HAVEQUICK
– SINCGARS, VMF (220D)
• GUARD, Survival Radio
• IFF Interrogate/Transponder
• TADIL-J, JVMF/VMF
(K-SERIES)
• RAD ALT, ILS, TACAN
• ICLS, JPALS
LINK 16, MADL
• Voice Messaging,
Voice Recognition
• Maintenance Intercom,
Voice Synthesis
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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cavok

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Unread post28 Sep 2017, 20:43

Being registered in a L16 network as a C2 paltform have a specific meaning, much different from feeding it or using it. Much different from being L16 capable...
*
Hint search "NATO ADatP". Easy.
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Unread post28 Sep 2017, 21:07

'cavok': Can she check ina L-16 network as C2 platform?

'popcorn' Yes.

'cavok': Thats very important feature to me. Can you kindly give me a link? (and if you have an idea of how why, again interested)

Well then I'm pleased you have your searching sorted out - my searches were for info on the F-35 section of this forum; which then upon reading will include more info and comments from others about same along with the extra graphics. Also being more precise about the question being asked will be useful for me and others interested in helping with searches.
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ricnunes

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Unread post28 Sep 2017, 21:28

cavok wrote:Being registered in a L16 network as a C2 paltform have a specific meaning, much different from feeding it or using it. Much different from being L16 capable...
*
Hint search "NATO ADatP". Easy.


C2 = Command and Control, right?

And since the F-35 can receive data (and merge it with other onboard and outboard sensor data) and transmit data to other Link 16 legacy aircraft including F-16, F-15 and other NATO aircraft why on Earth couldn't the F-35 be used as a Command and Control (a.k.a. C2) platform??
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post28 Sep 2017, 22:13

ricnunes wrote:
cavok wrote:Being registered in a L16 network as a C2 paltform have a specific meaning, much different from feeding it or using it. Much different from being L16 capable...
*
Hint search "NATO ADatP". Easy.


C2 = Command and Control, right?

And since the F-35 can receive data (and merge it with other onboard and outboard sensor data) and transmit data to other Link 16 legacy aircraft including F-16, F-15 and other NATO aircraft why on Earth couldn't the F-35 be used as a Command and Control (a.k.a. C2) platform??


I think this may be another case of moving into 5th Gen concepts. Historical (4th Gen and before) systems have been hub and spoke type of architectures. We see that in such things as registering as a C2 Node. (a hub for the spokes)

Fifth Gen architectures such as IFDL, NIFC-CA and MADL tends to be seen as a mesh network architecture. Is your iPhone a client or a router? Well it sort of depends on if you enable your phone as a hotspot. Is your computer a client or a network server? Well it depends on how you set your Windows 10 WiFi config. It might be both simultaneously.

In 5th Gen language, the F-35 can transmit and receive, and its "radios" are software programmable. When someone asks if a Link 16 node can register as C2 node, I usually equate that these days as someone saying their router is down, and I give them my Samsung's WiFi Hotspot pw, and say, "not a problem."

The F-35 can work with the Link 16 network. That's similar to me saying my iPhone can connect your Windows XP computer to the internet. And while the phone may "speak Cisco," it probably doesn't even know what a Cisco is. Fifth Gen networks are mesh architecture. There really aren't any C2 nodes, even when there are. My smart phone is not a router ... even when it is. It's a smart phone that speaks 4GL to cell towers, Bluetooth to devices, and WiFi to networks, and is software programmable. Make of that whatever you like ... no really ... make it whatever you want ... literally!

MHO
BP

If another person asks me if my iPhone is a Garmin again, I'm going to scream ... NO! It's an iPhone!
Last edited by blindpilot on 29 Sep 2017, 01:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post28 Sep 2017, 22:35

blindpilot wrote:
ricnunes wrote:C2 = Command and Control, right?

And since the F-35 can receive data (and merge it with other onboard and outboard sensor data) and transmit data to other Link 16 legacy aircraft including F-16, F-15 and other NATO aircraft why on Earth couldn't the F-35 be used as a Command and Control (a.k.a. C2) platform??


I think this may be another case of moving into 5th Gen. Historical (4th Gen and before) systems have been hub and spoke type of architectures. We see that in such things as registering as a C2 Node. (a hub for the spokes)

Fifth Gen architectures such as IFDL, NIFC-CA and MADL tends to be seen as a mesh network architecture. Is your iPhone a client or a router? Well it sort of depends on if you enable your phone as a hotspot. Is your computer a client or a network server. Well it depends on how you set your Windows 10 WiFi config. It might be both simultaneously.

In 5th Gen language, the F-35 can transmit and receive, and it's "radios" are software programmable. When someone asks if a Link 16 node can register as C2 node, I usually equate that these days as someone saying their router is down, and I give them my Samsung's WiFi Hotspot pw, and say, "not a problem."

The F-35 can work with the Link 16 network. That's similar to me saying my iPhone can connect your Windows XP computer to the internet. And while the phone may "speak Cisco," it probably doesn't even know what a Cisco is. Fifth Gen networks are mesh architecture. There really aren't any C2 nodes, even when there are. My smart phone is not a router ... even when it is. It's a smart phone that speaks 4GL to cell towers, Bluetooth to devices, and WiFi to networks, and is software programmable.

MHO
BP


Precisely!
That's basically what I had in mind although your explanation was much clear than my rhetorical question.

Due to its (complete) sensor fusion and for example the capability to guide weapons fired by other platforms (such as 4th gen fighter aircraft equipped with Link 16) which in my opinion is basically a C2 capability it doesn't matter if the outbound or inbound info relative to the F-35 comes from MADL or Link 16.
So, it's all and always the same info and it doesn't matter if this info is emitted or received thru either MADL or Link16.

Your examples are in my opinion spot on :wink:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post29 Sep 2017, 08:39

blindpilot wrote:
ricnunes wrote:
cavok wrote:Being registered in a L16 network as a C2 paltform have a specific meaning, much different from feeding it or using it. Much different from being L16 capable...
*
Hint search "NATO ADatP". Easy.


C2 = Command and Control, right?

And since the F-35 can receive data (and merge it with other onboard and outboard sensor data) and transmit data to other Link 16 legacy aircraft including F-16, F-15 and other NATO aircraft why on Earth couldn't the F-35 be used as a Command and Control (a.k.a. C2) platform??


I think this may be another case of moving into 5th Gen concepts. Historical (4th Gen and before) systems have been hub and spoke type of architectures. We see that in such things as registering as a C2 Node. (a hub for the spokes)

Fifth Gen architectures such as IFDL, NIFC-CA and MADL tends to be seen as a mesh network architecture. Is your iPhone a client or a router? Well it sort of depends on if you enable your phone as a hotspot. Is your computer a client or a network server? Well it depends on how you set your Windows 10 WiFi config. It might be both simultaneously.

In 5th Gen language, the F-35 can transmit and receive, and its "radios" are software programmable. When someone asks if a Link 16 node can register as C2 node, I usually equate that these days as someone saying their router is down, and I give them my Samsung's WiFi Hotspot pw, and say, "not a problem."

The F-35 can work with the Link 16 network. That's similar to me saying my iPhone can connect your Windows XP computer to the internet. And while the phone may "speak Cisco," it probably doesn't even know what a Cisco is. Fifth Gen networks are mesh architecture. There really aren't any C2 nodes, even when there are. My smart phone is not a router ... even when it is. It's a smart phone that speaks 4GL to cell towers, Bluetooth to devices, and WiFi to networks, and is software programmable. Make of that whatever you like ... no really ... make it whatever you want ... literally!

MHO
BP

If another person asks me if my iPhone is a Garmin again, I'm going to scream ... NO! It's an iPhone!



I do not scream at all. I was simply asking if F-35 could be registered as L-16 C2platform, i was answered yes and asked details. Nothing to do with "5th gen" netcentric battlefield (nothing to do with 5th gen , aswell as ifdl concept, see SAAB products, ie exists from ages.). when an avalanche of troll sh*t fell from above. There are still C2 nodes within L16, like it or not (otherwise it would be another datalink) and this C2 capability is imo the presently most interesting feature of F-35 (aswell as its comunication suite). So let me be interested in please?

btw, the analogy to wifi hotspot is fine.
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ricnunes

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Unread post29 Sep 2017, 10:22

cavok wrote:.... when an avalanche of troll sh*t fell from above.


You posted a question which was replied to you and was even debated with details and then what you have to say is what you written above, really?? :roll:

I won't extend on commenting this... never mind ...of yours, besides the following:
First, before you call someone else a troll look yourself AGAIN at the mirror. What you've been posting here, including your last post here is again the actual and true behaviour of a troll. But then again, looking at the history of your posts this reply of yours really doesn't surprise me at all.
Secondly, your post was reported to a moderator. Have a nice day!
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post29 Sep 2017, 10:32

The 5Gen Thinking is apparent in the statements from countless pilots and top brass in the USMC and AF who emphasize that essentially pilots have to transition to becoming tacticians and battle managers, capitalizing on all the information afforded to them to benefit the joint force. This new role far outweighs in importance and impact a 5Gen jet's ability to deliver kinetic effects.
Last edited by popcorn on 29 Sep 2017, 10:56, edited 1 time in total.
"When a fifth-generation fighter meets a fourth-generation fighter—the [latter] dies,”
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Unread post29 Sep 2017, 10:41

Cavok, the "scream" line was definitely not aimed at you; read BP's post again?
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