F-35 Flies Against F-16 In Basic Fighter Maneuvers

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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bring_it_on

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Unread post26 Aug 2015, 20:27

Thought this would be relevant since the report talked about the flight test in the High AOA regime..

F-35A High Angle Of Attack Testing - Steven Baer, Lockheed Martin, Edwards Air Force Base California (2014)
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spazsinbad

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Unread post26 Aug 2015, 21:04

Thanks 'bringUSstuff' :mrgreen: Wot a great find. Here is just the conclusion.... IS THERE A DATE for the PUB Please? OCT 2013
F-35A High Angle-of-Attack Testing
Oct 2013 Steven Baer Lockheed Martin, Edwards Air Force Base, California, 93523

“...Circle flow combat is one of the basic fighter maneuvers where two pilots engage in a sustained or instantaneous turn towards or away from one another. In this fight, the first pilot to get his aircraft's nose on the enemy will get the first shot off. In Fig. 7 is a combat scenario where both the aircraft turn towards one another. Here the friendly fighter has high AoA capability, allowing him, with proper timing, to pitch his nose up to get line of sight first on the enemy.

Used properly, high angle-of-attack capability can be the "gold nugget" that determines whether or not the F-35 comes out the victor in air combat. When combined with an already impressive arsenal of weapons, sensors, and stealth, the JSF will be a formidable foe in the air.”

Source: download/file.php?id=21418
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bring_it_on

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Unread post26 Aug 2015, 21:14

Spaz, this is the publication - 10/13

http://arc.aiaa.org/doi/abs/10.2514/6.2014-2057
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smsgtmac

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Unread post26 Aug 2015, 22:57

:thumb: :cheers:
The most relevant bits of which I believe, were summarized here:
http://elementsofpower.blogspot.com/201 ... -show.html (scroll to second half)

Edited tonight to add the smileys my phone wouldn't let me add this afternoon to convey the confirmatory spirit of the comment. (sounded too snotty without them) :-D
Last edited by smsgtmac on 27 Aug 2015, 02:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post26 Aug 2015, 23:33

smsgtmac wrote:The most relevant bits of which I believe, were summarized here:
http://elementsofpower.blogspot.com/201 ... -show.html (scroll to second half)


Thanks Mac..
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Unread post27 Aug 2015, 01:18

So really the F-35 team was testing and making find adjustments to the F-35's handling at high AoA. So why all the doom and gloom that it couldn't dogfight?

When people always bring up that stupid article about F-16 defeating the F-35 in a "simulated dogfight" I immediately have this face and thought...
Image

So really, can anyone speculate how they believe or think the F-35 would fight in a WVR arena?
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Unread post27 Aug 2015, 01:43

From the data that's been shown, I would just simply say that it'll dogfight / maneuver as well as a Hornet / Super Hornet, if not better.

http://archive.defensenews.com/article/ ... erformance

Operational pilots should be thrilled with the F-35's performance, Kelly said. The F-35 Energy-Management diagrams, which display an aircraft's energy and maneuvering performance within its airspeed range and for different load factors, are similar to the F/A-18 but the F-35 offers better acceleration at certain points of the flight envelope.


Combined with it's high AOA capabilities and the HMDS's ability to indicate the relative position of their adversary, it should be decent. Pretty much the only 2 issues with it's performance are:

1. That limited pitch rate; the software needs to have that alleviated.

2. Thrust-to-weight; this isn't much of an issue and it doesn't have that bad a thrust-to-weight, but because it's a high-alpha fighter, being able to accelerate out of a low energy state is important in allowing the pilot to find another gold nugget in the event that the first turns out to be pyrite.
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Unread post27 Aug 2015, 16:18

Dragon029 wrote:2. Thrust-to-weight; this isn't much of an issue and it doesn't have that bad a thrust-to-weight, but because it's a high-alpha fighter, being able to accelerate out of a low energy state is important in allowing the pilot to find another gold nugget in the event that the first turns out to be pyrite.

Right, having a bleed from a high alpha pull is one thing, but the question is what are the pilots options afterwards?
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Unread post27 Aug 2015, 17:53

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:but the question is what are the pilots options afterwards?


Prey there is only one bad guy...............
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Unread post27 Aug 2015, 19:48

basher54321 wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:but the question is what are the pilots options afterwards?


Prey there is only one bad guy...............


That's one issue with all this really slow speed post stall stuff..Its unlikely to be performed at a decent altitude, and then there is the entire furball to account for..Energy management is still a very important area unless you want to be a nice slow target that is unable to do much in a furball..
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Unread post28 Aug 2015, 12:50

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:
Dragon029 wrote:2. Thrust-to-weight; this isn't much of an issue and it doesn't have that bad a thrust-to-weight, but because it's a high-alpha fighter, being able to accelerate out of a low energy state is important in allowing the pilot to find another gold nugget in the event that the first turns out to be pyrite.

Right, having a bleed from a high alpha pull is one thing, but the question is what are the pilots options afterwards?


Designate another target and fire an AMRAAM, or hopefully some day, an AIM-9x. I know we all love talking EM but I'm in the camp that the days of the "get on his 6" dogfights are long gone. WVR is going to be a death sentence for lots of people against a capable enemy with HMS and HOBS missiles.
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Unread post28 Aug 2015, 14:56

reaper wrote:
sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:Right, having a bleed from a high alpha pull is one thing, but the question is what are the pilots options afterwards?


Designate another target and fire an AMRAAM, or hopefully some day, an AIM-9x. I know we all love talking EM but I'm in the camp that the days of the "get on his 6" dogfights are long gone. WVR is going to be a death sentence for lots of people against a capable enemy with HMS and HOBS missiles.

yep, right now that is the pilots option. Make sure someone else has his immediate "6" clear and scoot on out.
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Unread post06 Sep 2015, 14:34

Full 2 page PDF article attached below - only a two paragraph excerpt here:
APERTURE The F-35 “can’t fight”; New tactics; Marine Corps operational ....
Sep 2015 John A. Tirpak

"...All that said, F-35 pilots believe the jet will be a sterling dogfighter at need. The Air Force F-35A model was designed to turn at nine Gs with a full load of internal fuel and weapons—far outclassing any enemy lugging missiles and fuel tanks around. The Navy and Marine Corps versions are spec’d to 7.5Gs—the same as their current F/A-18s and AV-8Bs. With the DAS, however, and the F-35 pilot’s helmet, which allows him to see, select, and shoot at a target that he isn’t actually pointing at, F-35 pilots will have extraordinary awareness. The F-35 will be nimble enough, however, to help it evade any missiles actually fired at it.

All that said, F-35 pilots believe the jet will be a sterling dogfighter at need. The Air Force F-35A model was designed to turn at nine Gs with a full load of internal fuel and weapons—far outclassing any enemy lugging missiles and fuel tanks around. The Navy and Marine Corps versions are spec’d to 7.5Gs—the same as their current F/A-18s and AV-8Bs. With the DAS, however, and the F-35 pilot’s helmet, which allows him to see, select, and shoot at a target that he isn’t actually pointing at, F-35 pilots will have extraordinary awareness. The F-35 will be nimble enough, however, to help it evade any missiles actually fired at it...."

Source: AIR FORCE Magazine / September 2015
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Unread post10 Sep 2015, 04:31

Dave Majumdar is apparently now the Defense Editor of 'National Interest' website, and comes within a word or two of libeling Billie Flynn while claiming Axe's' fake 'dogfight' story 'proves' Flynn's deceptive ways. http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... wins-13802

I, of course, have already posted something on the matter, but for some reason my pointers to it don't seem to 'take' within the NI comment thread. :wink:
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Unread post10 Sep 2015, 05:19

spazsinbad wrote:Full 2 page PDF article attached below - only a two paragraph excerpt here:
With the DAS, however, and the F-35 pilot’s helmet, which allows him to see, select, and shoot at a target that he isn’t actually pointing at, F-35 pilots will have extraordinary awareness. The F-35 will be nimble enough, however, to help it evade any missiles actually fired at it.

Source: AIR FORCE Magazine / September 2015


Can you imagine when they reach a level of sensor fusion and networking on the F-35 when you aim and fire on the target with DAS and HMD the weapon comes off the plane with the best chance of hitting the target, not just your plane. Getting to that level pretty much signify s the end to wanting to merge, when a 4 vs 4 flight goes in and everyone is engaging everyone having the ability to guarantee the best missile is launched against the most vulnerable target pretty much assures victory.
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