Most agile F-35?

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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raptorpilotwannabe

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Unread post10 Oct 2012, 00:27

Out of the 3 variants of the F-35, A, B, and C. Which would be the most agile in turn radius, climb, (I think the F-35C takes the cake on that one because it has more lift)
, and which would have the best armament

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megasun

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Unread post10 Oct 2012, 00:41

Is it that F-35C has more lift or F-35C has more lift at low speed?
I think reaching a certain speed, all their wings will have enough lift, and the turning ability will be limited by the G-force the aircraft can take, in which case, F-35A will win the competition.
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Unread post10 Oct 2012, 01:02

and the practical effect plays into altitude as well. Get high enough and the A model will be unable to hit 9G without being supersonic, meaning that if evasion is needed during cruise the C model will take the cake.
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1st503rdsgt

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Unread post10 Oct 2012, 01:05

C model is limited to 7.5G, also the heaviest.
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wrightwing

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Unread post10 Oct 2012, 03:57

Most agile at higher speeds would likely be the A. Most agile at lower speeds would likely be the C. The A should be the quickest, and have the best climb performance.
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popcorn

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Unread post10 Oct 2012, 04:17

raptorpilotwannabe wrote:Out of the 3 variants of the F-35, A, B, and C. Which would be the most agile in turn radius, climb, (I think the F-35C takes the cake on that one because it has more lift)
, and which would have the best armament

Thanks


The B wins for turn radius with it's ability to pirouette :)
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popcorn

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Unread post10 Oct 2012, 04:17

..
Last edited by popcorn on 10 Oct 2012, 05:36, edited 1 time in total.
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raptorpilotwannabe

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Unread post10 Oct 2012, 04:39

popcorn wrote:
raptorpilotwannabe wrote:Out of the 3 variants of the F-35, A, B, and C. Which would be the most agile in turn radius, climb, (I think the F-35C takes the cake on that one because it has more lift)
, and which would have the best armament

Thanks


The B wins for turn radius with it's ability to pirouette :)



Well, if the B variant just pirouette while it VTOL's wouldn't it be a sitting duck for a missile coming in at mach 5?
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sirsapo

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Unread post10 Oct 2012, 05:11

There are many factors that come into play when determining these kinds of performance parameters.

The two variables at play here are airspeed and load factor (g).

The slower the airspeed at a given G, the faster the turn rate will be and the smaller the radius will become. So while the A model may have a 1.5g advantage over the C model, the C's larger wing may allow it to achieve maximum G at a slower speed, albeit temporarily. Conversely, the C's larger wing also produces more drag, so the speed at which max g can be sustained might be faster, negating the benefit of the larger wing.

You can see how interdependent these two variables are, so one version may have a better sustained turn radius, while the other is superior in instantaneous turn rate.

As far as climb rate goes, that is an issue of specific excess power, which is a function of airspeed, thrust and drag. So you can see that the extra drag and weight of the C model may actually hurt it in this regard since it is working with the same amount of thrust as the A model.

These calculations are impossible to make without a good drag polar (which we aren't going to get any time soon), but you can see an example of these factors at work when you compare the F-16 (F-35A) to the F/A-18 (F-35C). You'll find that the F-16 has better sustained turn performance, while the F/A-18 has great instantaneous capability.
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popcorn

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Unread post10 Oct 2012, 05:37

raptorpilotwannabe wrote:
popcorn wrote:
raptorpilotwannabe wrote:Out of the 3 variants of the F-35, A, B, and C. Which would be the most agile in turn radius, climb, (I think the F-35C takes the cake on that one because it has more lift)
, and which would have the best armament

Thanks


The B wins for turn radius with it's ability to pirouette :)



Well, if the B variant just pirouette while it VTOL's wouldn't it be a sitting duck for a missile coming in at mach 5?


and where in your original post is mention made of evading a Mach 5 missile? :roll:
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munny

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Unread post10 Oct 2012, 07:19

I read somewhere from an lm source that the c has the best sustained turn rate even with the lower G limit
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cola

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Unread post10 Oct 2012, 12:47

sirsapo wrote:Conversely, the C's larger wing also produces more drag, so the speed at which max g can be sustained might be faster, negating the benefit of the larger wing.

This is not necessarily true.
On the pure aerodynamic grounds, C has a more efficient lifting setup (L/D) compared to A, which directly translates into superior instantaneous performance (there was some talk about that in a different thread, recently).
T/W is another story though...so, which one has better sustained performance is still anyone's guess, at least for those that didn't fly both models and that's something you can't really calculate, out of publicly available data.
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maus92

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Unread post10 Oct 2012, 14:16

One thing is for sure: the F-35B is not going to be shooting anything with its fan doors open and performing a "pirouette." Unlike the actual pirouette maneuver implemented by Hornet drivers.
Last edited by maus92 on 10 Oct 2012, 22:18, edited 1 time in total.
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alloycowboy

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Unread post10 Oct 2012, 20:24

People always get caught up on the maximum rate of turn and maximum speed specifications of the F-35 but those are red hearing numbers. The turn rate of a fighter is actually dictated by the G-Forces the pilot can with stand and still keep his wits about him. The only time a fighter ever reaches it maximum speed is in testing so while an interesting indicator of performance it really doesn't mean much.

In fact for a fighter espically naval fighters maximum endurance and maximum range are more important then the maximum rate of turn. The Navy looses more fighters due to running out gas then fighters being shot down.

See the latest Test Pilot Tuesday Episode 20:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzDh6-rybXE&feature=relmfu
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sirsapo

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Unread post11 Oct 2012, 01:06

cola wrote:
sirsapo wrote:Conversely, the C's larger wing also produces more drag, so the speed at which max g can be sustained might be faster, negating the benefit of the larger wing.

This is not necessarily true.
On the pure aerodynamic grounds, C has a more efficient lifting setup (L/D) compared to A, which directly translates into superior instantaneous performance (there was some talk about that in a different thread, recently).
T/W is another story though...so, which one has better sustained performance is still anyone's guess, at least for those that didn't fly both models and that's something you can't really calculate, out of publicly available data.


That's why I said the speed at which max g can be sustained. The best instantaneous turn performance will be seen at the slowest speed at which the maximum load factor can be attained, but that doesn't mean the turn can be sustained, thats an issue of Ps. You may have to fly faster to offset the drag and maintain your max sustained g, and that excess speed required is what hurts your performance.

I agree that the C probably has superior instantaneous performance, but more goes into it than just L/D.

alloycowboy wrote:The turn rate of a fighter is actually dictated by the G-Forces the pilot can with stand and still keep his wits about him. The only time a fighter ever reaches it maximum speed is in testing so while an interesting indicator of performance it really doesn't mean much.

In fact for a fighter espically naval fighters maximum endurance and maximum range are more important then the maximum rate of turn. The Navy looses more fighters due to running out gas then fighters being shot down.


No, the turn rate of a fighter is dictated by physics and aerodynamics, not the tolerance of the pilot...

The Navy also loses more fighters to bird strikes than being shot down too, does that mean that adding screens to the front of the intakes is a better feature than turn performance?
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