F-35B (Non-US) Pocket Carriers

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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spazsinbad

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Unread post15 Feb 2021, 04:51

Funny thing about flat deck naval aircraft ops - for better weather - wait - or MOVE THE AIRFIELD TO BETTER WEATHER.
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 Feb 2021, 07:22

RoK Navy Issues New Images of LPX-II as it Tries to Gain Public Support for Aircraft Carrier Program

On 4 February 2021, the Republic of Korea (RoK) Navy held a seminar at the Chungnam National University to actively promote the LPX-II Light Aircraft Carrier program to South Korea's public.

Xavier Vavasseur  11 Feb 2021

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... r-program/


https://youtu.be/YLMQNjEHlko
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spazsinbad

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Unread post15 Feb 2021, 08:45

'zerion' posted the same information in another thread earlier: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24682&p=449697&hilit=Vavasseur#p449697
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 Feb 2021, 09:24

spazsinbad wrote:'zerion' posted the same information in another thread earlier: viewtopic.php?f=58&t=24682&p=449697&hilit=Vavasseur#p449697




Sorry, didn't see but it really belongs here......... :wink:
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Unread post15 Feb 2021, 09:33

She looks closer to 35,000 - 40,000 tons to me.......(vs stated 30,000)
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Unread post16 Feb 2021, 03:31

Attachments
CAVOUR Norfolk Feb 2021 210212-N-WO152-0001 cropPDF.jpg
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Unread post19 Feb 2021, 01:37

Square Fronted Flight Deck Bow JS IZUMO underway 18 Feb 2021 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amtP7AvDBas

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steve2267

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Unread post05 Mar 2021, 17:16

I was contemplating the question "just how small a ship could one design to support F-35B operations?"

Thermal heat issues and secure spaces aside, does anyone know if the Italian small carrier, Giuseppe Garibaldi, was ever planned to operate the Bee? I found one post on this forum that stated so, but the original source appears gone, and I found no other references stating the Giuseppe Garibaldi was ever planned to deploy the F-35B.

From this what if how-small-can-you-go mental exercise, it appears that the smallest class carrier that could operate Bees would be in the 10-15000 ton range, and gets you 12-16 Bees. A Cavour-class[i] ship of 20-30,000 tons would appear to get you 16-20 Bees in an aviation-only configuration. 30-45,000 tons seems to be required to get 24-30 Lightnings.

Back to the [i]Giuseppe Garibaldi
, with a ramped flight deck 561' long, it can launch the Bee. The hangar deck appears to be voluminous to hold the Bee, though at only 6m in height, I am unsure that is enough clearance to, for example, swap out a lift fan. I could find no dimensions of the elevators, but one image of Harriers on the flight deck suggested the elevators would be able to accomodate a Bee.

Probably a better what-if question is if the Giuseppe Garibaldi can accomodate V-22's. Surely a COD CNV-22B could land and deliver a motor, but not sure sh could hangar / maintain her own V-22's. So organic V-22 tanking is probably out.

From a COD / Tanking / AEW perspective based on a V-22 solution for all three, 20-30,000 tons is probably the smallest pocket carrier that could be designed for purely Bee aviation ops.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post05 Mar 2021, 22:52

It's too bad they cannot use even a lighter form of catapult to get F-35B airborne in a few hundred feet. Gotta trade that option to have VL, apparently. It's hard to believe that F-35B is rated that much less in it's ability to be pulled (tensile strength?) and can't throw on the C's front landing gear for a shorter ship than the flattops.
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steve2267

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Unread post05 Mar 2021, 23:52

madrat wrote:It's too bad they cannot use even a lighter form of catapult to get F-35B airborne in a few hundred feet. Gotta trade that option to have VL, apparently. It's hard to believe that F-35B is rated that much less in it's ability to be pulled (tensile strength?) and can't throw on the C's front landing gear for a shorter ship than the flattops.


I enquired once before about catapulting Bees. The answer was that it is a LOT more than just strengthened landing gear. Think about it -- all that force applied to the landing gear has to go somewhere -- back into the spine or backbone of the aircraft. So major portions of the fuselage barrel sections etc have to be strengthened. It's a LOT more than just slapping on beefed up landing gear.

That said, from a technical perspective, I note that the newer EMALS catapult apparently places far less strain on an aircraft, it may be possible to create an F-35BC to fling STOVL's off a ship... but why? What is the business case? (i.e. where and what are the requirements?) Or warfighting case? And perhaps more importantly, who is going to pay for all that development.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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weasel1962

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Unread post15 Mar 2021, 02:26

I sense a growing change in thinking, different from the past where such ideas were quickly dismissed. Whether this is enough to change highly entrenched navy mindsets is not clear at this time but I think a case is being built.

Article: A Case for Light Carriers
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedi ... t-carriers
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Corsair1963

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Unread post15 Mar 2021, 02:32

weasel1962 wrote:I sense a growing change in thinking, different from the past where such ideas were quickly dismissed. Whether this is enough to change highly entrenched navy mindsets is not clear at this time but I think a case is being built.

Article: A Case for Light Carriers
https://www.usni.org/magazines/proceedi ... t-carriers



Same argument different day! Honestly, only way I see a Light Aircraft Carrier (CVL) happening. Would be as a replacement for the LHA/LHD's. Otherwise, I don't see how they could afford it.


In short not likely....
Last edited by Corsair1963 on 15 Mar 2021, 04:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread post15 Mar 2021, 02:40

steve2267 wrote:I was contemplating the question "just how small a ship could one design to support F-35B operations?"

Thermal heat issues and secure spaces aside, does anyone know if the Italian small carrier, Giuseppe Garibaldi, was ever planned to operate the Bee? I found one post on this forum that stated so, but the original source appears gone, and I found no other references stating the Giuseppe Garibaldi was ever planned to deploy the F-35B.

From this what if how-small-can-you-go mental exercise, it appears that the smallest class carrier that could operate Bees would be in the 10-15000 ton range, and gets you 12-16 Bees. A Cavour-class[i] ship of 20-30,000 tons would appear to get you 16-20 Bees in an aviation-only configuration. 30-45,000 tons seems to be required to get 24-30 Lightnings.

Back to the [i]Giuseppe Garibaldi
, with a ramped flight deck 561' long, it can launch the Bee. The hangar deck appears to be voluminous to hold the Bee, though at only 6m in height, I am unsure that is enough clearance to, for example, swap out a lift fan. I could find no dimensions of the elevators, but one image of Harriers on the flight deck suggested the elevators would be able to accomodate a Bee.

Probably a better what-if question is if the Giuseppe Garibaldi can accomodate V-22's. Surely a COD CNV-22B could land and deliver a motor, but not sure sh could hangar / maintain her own V-22's. So organic V-22 tanking is probably out.

From a COD / Tanking / AEW perspective based on a V-22 solution for all three, 20-30,000 tons is probably the smallest pocket carrier that could be designed for purely Bee aviation ops.



Maybe Japan will operate the Izumo/Kaga in pairs with the Hyuga/Ise? As the former could carry F-35B's. While, the latter just Helicopters/Drones. Of course they could cross deck when necessary.
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Unread post15 Mar 2021, 04:47

Once upon a time, I inquired if the old Illustrious-class (I hope I got that right) could have fielded Killer Bees. Spaz rolled out the old(er) articles and rightly smacked me down... as the hangar spaces were not large enough, but worse than that, the elevators could not physically fit the Bee.

Tooling around Google searching for stories / information about the Giuseppe Garibaldi, other than the one reference I found, one photo of Harriers on deck along with an oblique view of an elevator, suggested that the Garibaldi could (have?) accomodated Killer Bees. So from a "how small can you go" perspective, I think you could get 10-12 Bees on a 10,000-12,000 ton ship. But why would you?
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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Unread post15 Mar 2021, 06:27

As the article notes, most of USN action are low sortie rate ones e.g. persian gulf action against ISIS ~10 sortie per day. Sending a CVN with a 160-270 sortie per day rate capability is an overkill (though the Navy will justify it as training since only wartime will we ever see even remotely close to 160 sorties per day).
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