F-35B (Non-US) Pocket Carriers

Discuss the F-35 Lightning II
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blindpilot

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Unread post23 Apr 2021, 00:55

"... believe that Turkey will ....


Per my comments on the other (Turkey) thread, any discussion like this is rooted in a "Twilight Zone" type delusion in Turkish quarters, imagining that somehow their decisions have not irrecoverably ruptured western ties. They have. Turkey is like the rowboat cut adrift from the ship when mutineers are kicked off the ship. That's reality.

A better question is, can you row the boat fast enough to keep up with the ship moving under full sail? ... um, .... that would be - "No." But we can do the mental exercise if you like.

MHO Just saying,
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steve2267

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Unread post08 May 2021, 03:04

Has there been any stories or mention of the possibilities of British industry building the QE-class for export? Or perhaps building a slightly smaller variant (Prince of ? or Duke of ?) around 40,000 tons that might support 20-30 Bees? I know BAE has been mentioned to possibly be in talks with the ROK about assisting in their new carrier.

Or what of the Italians building additional Cavour-class ships for export? Cavour is probably as small as you want to go. I suspect something the size of HMS Invincible could be built and support 10-12 Bees, but the costs for a small boat like that probably make it prohibitively expensive (i.e. the $$ ship to plane ratio would be high).
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ricnunes

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Unread post08 May 2021, 16:17

blindpilot wrote:
"... believe that Turkey will ....


Per my comments on the other (Turkey) thread, any discussion like this is rooted in a "Twilight Zone" type delusion in Turkish quarters, imagining that somehow their decisions have not irrecoverably ruptured western ties. They have. Turkey is like the rowboat cut adrift from the ship when mutineers are kicked off the ship. That's reality.

A better question is, can you row the boat fast enough to keep up with the ship moving under full sail? ... um, .... that would be - "No." But we can do the mental exercise if you like.

MHO Just saying,
BP


Why would you say that any discussion like this ("...believe that Turkey will" but you forget to precede with the "I don't..." as per my comment which you partly quoted) belongs to the "Twilight Zone" realm?
This being said yes, I also believe and agree with you that the Turkish ties with the West are "irrecoverably ruptured" (or at least they will be for several decades to come) and that the F-35B ship 'has sailed' and as such Turkey won't be able to catch this 'same ship'.
However as "irrecoverably ruptured" as these ties are and will be, Turkey still has its LHD/Assault ship and still wants to operate some form of fixed-wing aircraft from it. Turkey also wishes to operate manned aircraft from their ship - of course 'wishing' and 'getting' can be two very different words in real life! As such and nonetheless, I do not believe that this discussion belongs to the "Twilight Zone" realm :wink:
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post08 May 2021, 16:55

steve2267 wrote:Has there been any stories or mention of the possibilities of British industry building the QE-class for export? ...


Unlikely. If a nation is rich enough to afford F-35, it probably has a shipbuilding industry capable of producing a ship can handle those planes. And UK is not exactly renowned for its robust shipbuilding industry right now. If a nation can't build such a ship, likely it won't and/or can't buy F-35.
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Unread post08 May 2021, 19:27

ricnunes wrote:... As such and nonetheless, I do not believe that this discussion belongs to the "Twilight Zone" realm :wink:


Yeah a bit of an overstatement.

But anything other than helicopters like the T-129 and "used Harriers" (note: USMC has and controls all the spare parts for these wherever they are. If Spain etc. unload theirs, these would rapidly be door stops. IMO).. anything else is truly fantasy.

That and the fact that all the institutional military/industrial expertise in Turkey is in jail or bleeding out the back door, doesn't promise any future beyond a fantasy land. That Aerospace CEO smiling and nodding obediently to the "President" is working on his visa to "real" Europe, or beyond, hopefully making it out before the knocks sound on his door.

again just MHO, (based on in country reports)
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ricnunes

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Unread post09 May 2021, 16:47

blindpilot wrote:But anything other than helicopters like the T-129 and "used Harriers" (note: USMC has and controls all the spare parts for these wherever they are. If Spain etc. unload theirs, these would rapidly be door stops. IMO).. anything else is truly fantasy.


Yes, I fully agree with everything you said in your last post!

And yes, what you said above is actually my point - the only possibility for Turkey to operate a manned fighter aircraft fleet from its LHD/Assault ship would be thru "used Harriers".
“Active stealth” is what the ignorant nay sayers call ECM and pretend like it’s new.
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Unread post09 May 2021, 22:02

And again so we don't catch the fantasy train to nowhere.... where are these available 'used Harriers' to be purchased? It is likely that Spanish Navy Harriers will be used for some time to come because of delays to replacing them with F-35Bs?
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Unread post10 May 2021, 01:02

steve2267 wrote:Has there been any stories or mention of the possibilities of British industry building the QE-class for export? Or perhaps building a slightly smaller variant (Prince of ? or Duke of ?) around 40,000 tons that might support 20-30 Bees? I know BAE has been mentioned to possibly be in talks with the ROK about assisting in their new carrier.

Or what of the Italians building additional Cavour-class ships for export? Cavour is probably as small as you want to go. I suspect something the size of HMS Invincible could be built and support 10-12 Bees, but the costs for a small boat like that probably make it prohibitively expensive (i.e. the $$ ship to plane ratio would be high).



Most nations interested in Aircraft Carriers. Want to build their own ships.....Yet, that doesn't rule out assistance from a 3rd party.
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Unread post10 May 2021, 04:40

ricnunes wrote:... the only possibility for Turkey to operate... "used Harriers".


And I guess our point is this is hopeless as well. There really aren't any "used Harriers," without a support/supply chain. None are "for sale." In the future it is just as bleak. The support/supply chain is rooted in the US (UK shipped all of their parts to the USMC) and the chance of Turkey getting a single "bolt and nut" from that source is zero. After ten or so hours of flight, if that, the "new used aircraft" would become a lawn ornament.

Which is actually a good thing since, the good pilots are in jail, or worse, and the left over aircrew can't even fly the regular F-16's et al. There is no one to teach the guys who crash F-16s, how to fly the "challenging" Harrier. There is no air force in Turkey any more, which is why they are buying missiles for air defense.

Turkey has dug a hole that it can't even climb high enough to see out of.

They have built themselves a nice little helicopter carrier ....

IMHO,
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Unread post10 May 2021, 04:58

No, I wouldn't be surprised. If, Turkey rejoins the F-35 fold......Which, I said from the start. :wink:
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Unread post10 May 2021, 16:08

Corsair1963 wrote:No, I wouldn't be surprised. If, Turkey rejoins the F-35 fold......Which, I said from the start. :wink:

Taking this to the Turkey thread ... baby carriers here...
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Unread post11 May 2021, 15:16

AM I DRONING YOU? 11 May 2021 NOTE 'roller catapult' https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ing-drone/
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Unread post24 May 2021, 16:30

steve2267 wrote:Has there been any stories or mention of the possibilities of British industry building the QE-class for export? Or perhaps building a slightly smaller variant (Prince of ? or Duke of ?) around 40,000 tons that might support 20-30 Bees? I know BAE has been mentioned to possibly be in talks with the ROK about assisting in their new carrier.

Or what of the Italians building additional Cavour-class ships for export? Cavour is probably as small as you want to go. I suspect something the size of HMS Invincible could be built and support 10-12 Bees, but the costs for a small boat like that probably make it prohibitively expensive (i.e. the $$ ship to plane ratio would be high).


No.
Like others have mentioned if you've got the money to buy F-35B and the desire and need to operate an aircraft carrier you tend to have the ability to build a small carrier yourself, like a Juan Carlos, or have the contacts to licence a design. There isn't really a market for buying ready built 70,000 tonne carriers. Or indeed for small, totally aviation focused carriers like the Invincible. There's a huge jump in cost, capability and desire for a full aircraft carrier from a desire for an aviation capable LHD. The Italian designs (both the Cavour and Trieste) I think are the pick of the bunch to date.

But....the Indian's have looked at the QE Class and there have been ongoing discussions about the Indian's purchasing design or expertise for a home built version (like the French were doing for PA.2). The UK is also speaking to the South Korean's about potentially assisting them in the design of their LPX-II F-35B capable vessel.
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Unread post09 Jun 2021, 16:05

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Unread post10 Jun 2021, 01:23

I love naval ship models. They remind me of architecture models.
Take an F-16, stir in A-7, dollop of F-117, gob of F-22, dash of F/A-18, sprinkle with AV-8B, stir well + bake. Whaddya get? F-35.
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