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Unread postPosted: 14 Sep 2007, 15:26
by That_Engine_Guy
Side topic... :D

This is where we should point out to less experienced people that the EPU will run off of bleed-air from the engine if it is still running.

If there is an emergency situation and the EPU is activated (or activates automatically) and the engine is still running, the EPU uses pressurized air from the engine to spin it's turbine. At that point the Hydrazine fuel is "metered" into the air to maintain the proper operating speed as needed.

Say you're using the EPU to deal with an electrical issue and the engine is running fine; perhaps the PTO shaft between the engine gearbox and the ADG has failed... The EPU could run a very long time if the engine RPM is kept up, thereby keeping high flow air moving through the EPU.

So even if the engine isn't "pushing much" anymore, it may be allowing the EPU to operate longer, or countering just enough drag to make that miracle glide, or unusual landing... :applause:

As engine guys, we hope nobody ever has to find out... :thumb:

Unread postPosted: 14 Sep 2007, 21:40
by a1rao
You guys are a treasure chest of information :)

Unread postPosted: 15 Sep 2007, 05:18
by MaddogF16
I don't know if "Treasure" is the right word but we do have a little info...!!!

Re: Engine flame out

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2021, 17:45
by basher54321
Engine flame out breakdown.

Re: Engine flame out

Unread postPosted: 20 Apr 2021, 20:13
by sprstdlyscottsmn
Holy thread ressurection batman!

Re: Engine flame out redux

Unread postPosted: 26 Apr 2021, 18:48
by Gums

Yeah, Spurts, just happen to check in here and whoa!

Mover has his show, and some small tech aaspects are a little off, but on the whole his good points are about airmanship. And he can tell a decent story.

After the Raptors moved to here and some to Langley, I lost contact. He said he was gonna be flying the T-38 "adversary" planes over at Tyndall, when I last had contact. We could not get together for various reasons. He is one of the few non-testpilots that has a decent amount of hours in the Hornet and the Viper. Both of us being coonasses from south Louisiana and growing up in New Orleans, our initial contact went well, and I got to review a coupla books and even got a very advance copy of one of them. Seems he got a regional carrier flying job about the same time he was headed to Tyndall, and maybe that is keeping him BZ.

The F-16 was the first jet to be "allowed" to land deadstick since the 106 and my trusty A-37. We had first one back in 1981 or so by Bill Lake, and he put it down at Wendover. The first attempt in 1979 was our first loss. The Belgian pilot on the OT&E team got terrible support or lack thereof. As Mover says, the CRM is important. Hell, that guy would have made the RWY if he had punched the tanks at the very end or if a flight member knew the systems well enuf to recognize trapped fuel after a refueling.

The rumors and such about the Viper flameout performance are close.... The thing definitely had a great glide ration, and 7 or 8 to one is about right. The rascal glided about like a Cessna. We had a classic one at Clearwater Intnl a lot earlier than the one Mover showed. The IP in back seat was right behind me checking out in early 1980. His deadstick had to be in late 80's.

The early SFWE and EPU/battery design evolved, so out early Bk 1 and Bk5 power systems did not power the HUD or the INS. We used something like 80 mils in the manual gunsight for our flight path marker at some reasonable speed, maybe 180 on the steam gauges. No pitch lines or A0A bracket in HUD, etc.

Gums recalls....

Re: Engine flame out

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2021, 19:57
by outlaw162
re: the one in the late 80's at Clearwater?

During my 'I' course at TUS in '87, they had a former MacDill IP, now Kansas Guard IP from McConnell come down and fly as guest IP on some missions. He flew a 1v1 BFM against me and afterward mentioned his flameout landing and gave me a copy of the videotape. He was flying a crew chief on an incentive ride in the back of a 'B' when the engine quit south of Tampa. No wingman, no SOF input. Couldn't make MacDill and with scattered clouds at a couple thousand feet, it's a 'hair raising' video of a fantastic job, and he landed at Tampa Intl. Maybe a different guy?

Prior to this in '85, there was a guy named Amato who put one down engine-out thru a thick overcast into the old NAS Glenview with a solid ceiling around 1000' and the help of vectors from the Chicago Rapcon. No video available of this one, I would have probably been too busy to turn on the HUD cam myself. No wingman, no SOF. Not only a fantastic job, but really amazing he didn't have to bail. :shock:

But what I wanted to comment on was this CRM stuff. The genesis of the formal 'concept' of CRM was a United DC-8 with 3 crewmembers, CAPT, FO and FE, that ran out of gas in a holding pattern in clear wx at Portland IAP. Bottomline, the captain was stupid and CRM was 'born'. I've got a couple thousand hours as a 727 IP with the gov and the marshals....and CRM is just common sense, as it was always practiced, not some suddenly formalized concept with new buzzwords. Empires are built from this approach to aviation accidents.....

....and single-seat drivers don't need no stink'in CRM....that's not to say a little help from ATC or some wingman is not appreciated, but if you can't do it without 'em, that's what they make ejection seats for. :mrgreen:

Re: Engine flame out

Unread postPosted: 27 Apr 2021, 20:33
by saberrider
Gums , I have a question for you or any pilot about the LEF's/TEF's position at this speed+ @215Knots.If they are down by the new configuration of the aircraft or not.The AOA is 7 glide slope is more than 10.

Re: Engine flame out

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 14:48
by Gums

I gotta check my old docs and get back about the LEF position, but at 215 IAS and gear up they will move about depending on your AoA. The TEF have the full down, then neutral then a slight up positions. Gear down, full down. Gear up subsonic, neutral. Supersonic slight trailing edge up.

@outlaw...... My CRM comment had to do with flight lead or wingie help. I never flew except as A/C or IP from time I was a butter bar. My only deadstick in 4,000 hours was the first for the A-37, and we had not even practiced it until I showed it was fairly easy. My flight lead was an old head and besides keeping me calm we discussed the profile to use and then he suggested we do a 360 with gear down while descending to see the altitude loss at our guestimated speed - we used about 10 or 15 knots higher than the SFO pattern for the T-37B due to our much heavier weight. Had plenty of air to play with, as we had decided to orbit Tahn Son Nhut International when it was obvious we would not get to Bien Hoa.

The Belgian was solo in a family model and he did not close the AAR door. So he had TEF down per the FLCS law to get more canopy clearance, and then coming home with trapped fuel he cruised slowly at best range speed, hence the TEF didn't "blow" up, so more drag and power required. His buddies did not know as much about the system as most of us and did not think about the fuel being trapped in the drops because the system was not pressurized.... duhhhhh! So he got zilch help from his flight. Hence my CRM comment.

Gums sends...

Re: Engine flame out

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 16:28
by outlaw162
Too bad you didn't have video for the A-37 flameout. Love to see that. :thumb:

I'll mention another downside example of wingie inputs. As a Viper trainee, had a generator oil line break with subsequent generator failure and an EPU that fired up and then very shortly quit. So it's approach end arrestment time. My IP stays with me on the wing for 100 miles and appropriately says nary a word. At around 10 miles on final I turn on the cam, and at about 2 miles on final the IP says, "Don't forget to lock your shoulder harness." :shock:

Right, right, now inside 2 miles I'm gonna drop my concentration on the approach to fumble around and lock a harness that has an inertial reel anyway.

My only point was that what became formal 'CRM' was practiced long before CRM became CRM, multi-crew heavies or single-seat/two seat fighters. Developing creative new terms for the same old stuff makes good OER or resume' fodder.

Old terms, crew/WSO/SOF/wingie coordination, 'getting your ducks in row', formulating the 'plan', willingness to encourage and when appropriate accept all crew inputs and using all available 'useful' info, tuning out what's not useful or timely, assuring clarity of individual crewmember responsibilities and previous serious academic and training preparation long before the it what you they label it CRM thanks to one authoritarian DC-8 captain...and spend 3-4 days in the classroom talking about what is essentially common sense while using a lot of fancy and colorful powerpoint flow charts.

I hate flowcharts. :mrgreen: (Sorry, I'm old school, just give me some chalk and a blackboard.)

Re: Engine flame out

Unread postPosted: 29 Apr 2021, 16:53
by Gums

Great words, Outlaw. I thot we called it crew coordination back then...

My intro was the VooDoo. The RIO had no stick or throttle or anything. Hell, I don t tink he had engine instruments. Up front, I could not even control the radar. My first and last CRM lesson was first time I flew at Tyndall with a real live RIO in the back seat. My IP took about ten or fifteen seconds and told me, "listen to what he says". LOL.

The switchology in the early planes was pisspoor. The Sluf set the bar high, and then the Eagle, Viper, F-20 and F-18. There are certain missions that need two folks, maybe three. But the technology and human factors folks got us from the Double Ugly and 'vaark, to the 4th gen planes in ten years.

Gums sends...

Re: Engine flame out

Unread postPosted: 02 May 2021, 08:39
by saberrider
Thanks for your reply Gums. I have a guess that the TEF will be neutral until the zero knots(unless they are lowered by pilot with Alt flap). But then if the pilot lower them down the AOA /airspeed decrease and CL increase. This will be better set up at higher altitudes in my opinion (travelling with flaperons down) but I guess this is not the case( with the engine flameout).

Re: Engine flame out

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2021, 01:34
by johnwill
A problem with LEF and TEF down is the nose down pitch moment they put on the airplane. That moment must be balanced with a down load on the tails, resulting in more (trim) drag and more AoA / CL plus wing/fuselage lift Induced drag. The advantages you mentioned may be there, but you must look at all the effects.

Re: Engine flame out

Unread postPosted: 03 May 2021, 08:14
by saberrider
Johnwill, thank you for your time, but when there's increased lift from the shape of the wing camber modified by the TEF's and LEF's lowered down, the stabilators leading edges must go upwards slightly, not down (in my view of course, I don't know for sure) because if they go down the AOA will be increased more( also in my understanding) .So the lift is added by the stabilators position if they go down for trim (this is how I see your explication). To me stabilators must go upwards slightly.