Engine flame out

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a1rao

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Unread post12 Sep 2007, 22:10

Hey, sorry if this has been posted on previous threads. Havn't had a chance to troll through all of them yet-

Suppose your flying at an altitude of 6000 meters and a speed of 550 knots, when your engine suddenly flames out. What are the procedures or steps to take before you decide to abandon ship and bail out? I have heard that engine flame outs are pretty tricky on the F-16 as many systems and controls are electronic. Thus, with a loss of engine power fly-by-wire is also hindered.
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Guysmiley

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Unread post12 Sep 2007, 22:21

Three letters: EPU.

What's that smell? Smells like... ammonia. :lol:
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der03301

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Unread post13 Sep 2007, 02:14

First he's going to get that JFS up and going, and he's going to try and re-start. The EPU should already be going due to it sensing the engine spooling down less than 58% and a loss of signal from the main gen. If that doesn't work he only has +-20 minutes (if he can glide that long) to find a place to land. After that the "D" ring is the only option.

Flame-out's are extremely rare. I've never seen one on a GE. There are much bigger things to worry about on this jet than a flame-out.
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That_Engine_Guy

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Unread post13 Sep 2007, 02:50

The EPU (Emergency Power Unit) will provide electrical power and hydraulic pressure in the event either drops below a defined limit. (Engine flame-out, or otherwise) The ammonia smell is the hydrazine fuel burning, and if you can smell it you've been over-exposed!

I'm not a pilot but quick and dirty, it goes something like this...

Check engine instruments - Temperature, and RPM are dropping, oh $h\+ :( !?

EPU fires off to provide power/hydraulics - Something is seriously wrong. :shock:

Throttle doesn't help - Move throttle to OFF - (Engine still pumps fuel while spinning)

Starter ON - Watch engine temperature, should be dropping as starter turns engine over

When RPM and Temperature are OK place throttle back to IDLE

Start praying to appropriate deity of your choosing, ask for divine intervention... :notworthy:
Hint: Sweet-talk engine to improve it's opinion of you.
:lmao:

This is when the engine should return to idle but...

When a modern aircraft turbine engine just quits; the reason it quit in the first place may be the biggest problem at hand, not the flame-out that results. To flame-out a modern motor takes a serious mechanical problem or a serious operator error.

With PW/GE's control computers, programming, redundant systems, fault-accommodation logic, and over all design, an engine shouldn't just quit. :roll:

Being too close to another aircraft's exhaust, fuel starvation, flight outside the engine's approved flight-envelope are just a few ways an operator can cause a flame-out. With the exception of fuel starvation, most can be restarted.

Sure engines will (and do) break from time to time, but I've seen engines eat ice, hail, stones, hats, rags, binders, birds, large birds, and HUGE birds and continue to operate "satisfactorily" until the pilot determined it was in his (and/or the engine's) best interest to shut-down. Engines can loose parts, oil pressure, computer-control, or catch fire internally and still operate at an appropriate level.

If said engine is in the proper mood and you've kept on good terms with the deity mentioned above :lol:

Hope this helps...

Keep 'em runnin' :cheers:
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SnakeHandler

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Unread post13 Sep 2007, 04:42

The official answer is:

ZOOM (If at low altitude)
STORES-JETTISON (if required)
THROTTLE-OFF
AIRSPEED-AS REQUIRED
When RPM is between 50-25% and FTIT below 700 degrees
THROTTLE-IDLE
JFS-START 2 WHEN BELOW 20,000 FEET AND 400 KIAS

Try to start the engine in the mode (PRI or SEC) commanded by the DEEC (or whichever engine computer you have), then if that doesn't work retry in the other mode. If neither work, you can try it again with the anti-ice switch off but you're pretty much S$%t outta luck. By the way, 6K meters and 550C will get you a zoom climb somewhere up near 30 thousand. That's about as high as you want because your epu will run out before you can get her on the ground much above that. 30K will get you a glide distance of about 35-40 miles depending on the winds. That gives you time to either find a suitable piece of concrete or a soft spot of dirt to try out your Parachute Landing Fall technique.

Hope that clears things up.
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parrothead

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Unread post13 Sep 2007, 09:42

I've got a somewhat related question here. Say you're flying over Nevada (the land of dry lakes and long, straight roads) and the engine quits for some reason. If you have enough road or dry lake bed, do you try for the flame-out landing on that surface (sounds reasonable) or do you eject due to the possiblity of an aircraft roll-over after touchdown on an unprepared or possibly unsuitable surface?

Thanks in advance :) .
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MaddogF16

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Unread post13 Sep 2007, 14:17

Parrothead,
Snakehandler nailed it with the CAPS, ie climbing while you're trying to figure out what happened and where are you going to try to land all the while trying for a restart. If you determine that you can't make a suitable air field then a long stretch of highway is just as good as long as there aren't cars in your way. Now as far as dry lake beds..... that all depends on how rough they are, as you stated if it's a rough surface, cart wheeling, shearing a gear, is a definite problem. That's why they pay you the big bucks....ultimately YOU have to make the decision on trying to land or punching out. This also is one of the reasons we fly with wingmen (Mutual Support as we call it) usually 2 or 4 ship. Now you have some other inputs from them that can hopefully HELP you with your decesion making, although too much info/chattering can clutter your mind too. They should only offer info when you ask for it unless they determine safety is involved..!! Generally, you'll have time to talk it over with others making sure you've done everything you need to do and giving you viable options. This is why we train so hard in the SIM, and keep in the books.
Check Six..!!
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vinnie

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Unread post13 Sep 2007, 19:27

Reminds me of a 61st B model that took a turkey vulture down the intake north of Tampa. Punched tanks, got to 20k before the engine quit, deadsticked 25+ miles to Tampa International. IP flew it from the backseat.
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a1rao

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Unread post13 Sep 2007, 21:19

Appreciate all the input- thanks for the responses guys. Cleared up all my doubts :)
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der03301

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Unread post14 Sep 2007, 02:08

vinnie wrote:Reminds me of a 61st B model that took a turkey vulture down the intake north of Tampa. Punched tanks, got to 20k before the engine quit, deadsticked 25+ miles to Tampa International. IP flew it from the backseat.



I'm going to have to see some proof. There is no way an F-16 was able to glide 25+ miles at only 20K unless it was going damn fast before the engine quit. Since he was flying low enough to take a bird, and had just completed a climb, I don't believe he would have enough speed to make 25+ miles.
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Roscoe

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Unread post14 Sep 2007, 02:52

At Edwards we had a guy throw a turbine blade right after takeoff. He declared IFE, 180'd back to the field. The emergency gear extension did not work (forget why...or he forgot :shock: ) and he landed on his 370 Gal fuel tanks...which he failed to punch off per the boldface. Turned out to be a good thing since the gear was not down...
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Davis83

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Unread post14 Sep 2007, 03:29

25 miles does seem long, I'm not a pilot - so not sure. Early in my career at F-16 familiarization class (F-4's to 16's), I recall the tech rep saying the falcon had a 1 to 7 glide ratio? For every mile of altitude it could glide 7 miles - I'm sure thats not the same now since the bird weighs so much more than a blk 10 did at the time (1983).

and the 1 to 7 ratio might have been Gen Dynamics smoke too.
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der03301

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Unread post14 Sep 2007, 04:16

If it is a 1:7 ratio it is possible. At 20K with a ratio of 1:7 he can go 26.46 miles. But a 1:7 ratio seems really high to me. 5.5 years on 16's and I don't know the glide ratio... :bang:

So let's suppose that he can glide 25 miles. How long does it take the F-16 with no power to glide that far and land? 20+- minutes to do all that and land could happen, but I still think it's a stretch as the EPU would be the only thing keeping it in the air.

EDIT: I was wrong. It can and has happened, but with a 30kt tail wind and with an engine that was still running, but with only idle power, with the occasional throttle advancement. With the above he wouldn't have made it.

Pilot's story:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0JCA/is_12_12/ai_n6100350
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parrothead

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Unread post14 Sep 2007, 09:31

Thanks for all the responses guys :) !

MaddogF16 - big time thanks :thumb: ! I didn't know if it was the pilot's decision or if there was some policy on what to do. I suppose it's pretty much always up to the pilot in the end - there's no remote control and it's a single seat aircraft after all - which is also why they're so careful about who they let get at the controls with that kind of performance and firepower :) .

Davis83,

Actually, weight has nothing to do with glide ratio. The glide ratio remains the same, but you'll glide faster if the aircraft weighs more. Competition sailplane pilots actually load their aircraft up with water ballast to increase their speed and have to dump it before landing :wink: .
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vinnie

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Unread post14 Sep 2007, 13:27

It did happen, it was a blk 10 B model. The glide ratio is right. Think Stutler or Kopack can back me on this one. The engine ran until he was at 20 k so he did not zoom climb. If anyone has the 1987 summer edition of Code One vol2 no3 , I believe the article about it is in it.
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