Croatia begins evaluating new fighters

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shadowhawk

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Unread post20 May 2021, 17:17

herciv wrote:
shadowhawk wrote:Probably the biggest joke in the history of aviation - a country that has problems to operate MiG-21s is going to buy one of the most expensive jets on the market. :doh: :D


Expensive really ? 900 million euros for 12 rafale + formation + spare + weapon.


It's not the upfront cost(still unknown), it's the cost of flying, maintainance, training... All very expensive and all available from single source.
At best, a single Rafale jet is twice as expensive, per hour, as the M2000 - from french AF sources. M2000 is roughly similar to F-16 CPFH.
Croatia's defence budget is tiny, it's pilots and technicians old and too few.

I see this as a practical joke. I have zero faith in believing this deal will ever go through.
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herciv

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Unread post20 May 2021, 19:59

shadowhawk wrote:
It's not the upfront cost(still unknown),

It is know for what it is maximum 900 million euros. Of course there are negociation after the selection.

shadowhawk wrote:
it's the cost of flying, maintainance, training... All very expensive and all available from single source.
At best, a single Rafale jet is twice as expensive, per hour, as the M2000 - from french AF sources. M2000 is roughly similar to F-16 CPFH.
Croatia's defence budget is tiny, it's pilots and technicians old and too few.

I see this as a practical joke. I have zero faith in believing this deal will ever go through.


It's hard to know the real price of such a fleet. As said elsewhere in f-16.net CPFH can be very different from one country to one other.

For example if Croatia use their rafale only 180 hours / year as per NATO recommandation or 250 hours/year as in France of course the CPFH wouldn't be the same.
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shadowhawk

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Unread post20 May 2021, 20:07

herciv wrote:It is know for what it is maximum 900 million euros. Of course there are negociation after the selection.


There is no costs mentioned officially anywhere. Those are just guesses.

shadowhawk wrote:
It's hard to know the real price of such a fleet. As said elsewhere in f-16.net CPFH can be very different from one country to one other.

For example if Croatia use their rafale only 180 hours / year as per NATO recommandation or 250 hours/year as in France of course the CPFH wouldn't be the same.


Well, let's put things in perspective.
In the previous tender, the one which F-16 Block 30 Barak/Brakeet won, it was planned to fly around 100 hours/year per pilot.
Currently, MiG pilots fly around 50-60 hours average.

There is absoloutely no chance Croatian AF will ever get anywhere near 180 hours with any plane(no money, pilots or mechanics, or indeed need), thus the hypothetical CPFH of a jet like Rafale will be astronomical.

Like I said, it's a joke.
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XanderCrews

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Unread post21 May 2021, 19:26

bonplan wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
hythelday wrote:Croatian Fighter Jet Saga Continues, Decision Coming Soon?
https://www.total-croatia-news.com/poli ... ighter-jet


Block 70/72 F-16s are actually looking like a great value compared to even used F-16s. interesting


F16 become heavier and heavier with the time. But the wings always are the one studied for F16A...
It is now more a F104 than a F16.
It was a good versatile fighter. Now it's time to retire after a very famous life.


HAHAHAHAHA

https://www.f-16.net/f-16-news-article5191.html

and of course Croatia opted for F-16s to begin with but that was stopped by US intervention. if not for that, this would be done and there would be no bothering with Rafales. Don't get cocky because you sold a dozen to Croatia LOL

from 2008:

Kemp insists that the new Gripen NG will be the “main challenger to JSF”, dismissing the Eurofighter Typhoon on cost grounds. He says the Dassault Rafale will “never get started on the export market” because of what he called “launch customer nervousness – who wants to be the first and perhaps only customer?”

https://www.flightglobal.com/farnboroug ... 91.article

September 10th 2020

Saab has submitted a formal proposal for 12 new-build Gripen C/D multi-role fighters to Croatia. The proposal is a government-to-government deal, and was handed over on September 9 by representatives from Sweden’s FMV (defense material administration) and the country’s embassy in Zagreb. The proposal also includes a parallel strategic cooperation package that is tailored to the development of Croatian industrial and technological capability.

“Sweden and Saab are offering a comprehensive and long-term solution for Croatian homeland security that will protect Croatia’s people and borders for decades to come,” said Jonas Hjelm, the head of Saab’s Aeronautics business area. “If Croatia chooses Gripen, Saab is ready to transfer know-how and technology and establish a Regional Aeronautical and Support Service Centre in Croatia. This would develop long-term cooperation with local defense industry as well as the academic sector, generating some 500 high-tech jobs.”

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... er-croatia

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herciv wrote:
shadowhawk wrote:Probably the biggest joke in the history of aviation - a country that has problems to operate MiG-21s is going to buy one of the most expensive jets on the market. :doh: :D


Expensive really ? 900 million euros for 12 rafale + formation + spare + weapon.


An offset of one billion euros

As expected, a used Israeli-American F-16 Barak dropped out of the game because it was clear to everyone even before the tender that the offer was meaningless. The reason for this is the previous unsuccessful purchase of that aircraft from Israel, as well as the fact that these are temporary aircraft that would be about 40 years old at the time of delivery to Croatia.
That this was clear to everyone is also showcased by the fact that Israel didn't actually lobby for its planes, and the Americans submitted their offer for the sake of keeping order.

A much bigger surprise was the write-off of the Swedish Gripen aircraft, although it was obvious at the beginning that almost all of the bidders are strong players, some in a geopolitical sense and some in an economic sense, and that any losers could cause some problems in the political and economic global arena. Although it's clear to everyone that the Rafale and F-16s are larger and more powerful, and of course more expensive fighter jets than the Swedish Gripen aircraft, the Swedes are the only ones who have made a concrete offer for economic cooperation with Croatia.

Among other things, in an interview with Poslovni Dnevnik, those at the helm of Saab, the manufacturer of the Gripen aircraft, and the Swedish arms agency FMV, said they were ready to invest half of the total price of the Gripen aircraft into the Croatian economy. If it's known that the basic price of these Gripen aircraft stands at around one billion euros, and the costs of its maintenance, armament and use would be the same, it's clear that the Swedes would invest around one billion euros in Croatia in some form of offset.

The Americans offered cooperation with six unspecified Croatian companies that the F-16 aircraft manufacturer, Lockheed Martin, would include in its global supply chain. In addition to the F-16, the company also produces F-22 and F-35 fighter jets, as well as C-130 Hercules and C-5 Galaxy transport aircraft, and has other missile and space divisions too.
France's offer is the biggest mystery of all. Although in unofficial talks with military officials and other bidders, one may get the impression that the Rafales are the favourites of the Croatian Government, nothing is publicly known about their offer, both in a financial sense with regard to the aircraft, weapons and equipment, nor about about possible reverse economic cooperation or offsets.


https://www.total-croatia-news.com/poli ... n-aircraft

Rafale cheaper than Gripen? :mrgreen:
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herciv

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Unread post21 May 2021, 20:43

XanderCrews wrote:
Rafale cheaper than Gripen? :mrgreen:


Probably not. But second hand rafale yes. It seems that the rafale sold to Croatia could have around 3000 hours (10 years in the French Air Force). All will be at the f3R standard and sold without any modification by Dassault, Thales or Safran. It's a direct sold from France without DASSAULT.

3000 hours represent more or less 1/3 of the potential for a rafale.

But weapons seems to be not confirmed in the package.
We have to wait for any confirmation.
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shadowhawk

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Unread post22 May 2021, 11:03

herciv wrote:
XanderCrews wrote:
Rafale cheaper than Gripen? :mrgreen:


Probably not. But second hand rafale yes. It seems that the rafale sold to Croatia could have around 3000 hours (10 years in the French Air Force). All will be at the f3R standard and sold without any modification by Dassault, Thales or Safran. It's a direct sold from France without DASSAULT.

3000 hours represent more or less 1/3 of the potential for a rafale.

But weapons seems to be not confirmed in the package.
We have to wait for any confirmation.



Those used F3Rs will need upgrades to extend the life. Which will cost money. Gripens are about the same upfront cost as used F3Rs, are much cheaper to operate and have a life of 8000 flight hours.
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Unread post22 May 2021, 13:53

Gripen NG doesn't exactly offer any closure in performance gap to F3R. The operations costs cannot be too absurd or you'd of heard Egypt balk at a follow-up order. When Rafale first hit the scene it was rapidly developing and so costs were fluid. That's not the case since F3.
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shadowhawk

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Unread post22 May 2021, 15:07

madrat wrote:Gripen NG doesn't exactly offer any closure in performance gap to F3R. The operations costs cannot be too absurd or you'd of heard Egypt balk at a follow-up order. When Rafale first hit the scene it was rapidly developing and so costs were fluid. That's not the case since F3.


There's big difference between Egypt and Croatia. Egypt operates planes like Su-35, F-16, Rafale, while Croatia struggles with 7 MiG-21s.
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herciv

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Unread post28 May 2021, 13:23

And Croatia will fly Rafales!
https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fi ... 85584.html

The goal is to sign a contract before the end of the year, so that the first six Rafales can be delivered by the end of 2023, early 2024, followed by a second package by the end of 2024, early 2025, to replace the Croatian Air Force's old MiGs.

And that's three! After Greece and Egypt in 2021, it's Croatia's turn to buy the Dassault Aviation Rafale F3R proposed by France. Or more precisely, to select the tricolor fighter that will be taken from the air force fleet (12 aircraft: 2 two-seaters and 10 single-seaters) despite maximum pressure from Washington on the Croatian authorities to get on board the F-16. After the selection of the Rafale, Zagreb will negotiate with Paris for several months to sign a contract for 12 second-hand Rafales armed with MICA air-to-air missiles, AASM bombs and finally a 30-mm cannon with its ammunition, according to our information. France is also committed to providing training for Croatian pilots. The overall contract is valued at around 999 million euros.

According to Prime Minister Andrej Plenković, "this is the largest investment in Croatian armaments. We are increasing our combat power capacity of the Croatian army in the next 30-40 years, which is the greatest guarantor of peace. The committee studied the offers thoroughly. A study on the acquisition of aircraft was unanimously adopted. The government considers the French offer to be the best: 12 Rafale F3R aircraft (...) For the best financial amount, Croatia obtains the best rated and best equipped aircraft. 999 million euros is the best offer and France provides the best installment payment.

The goal is to sign a contract before the end of the year to deliver the first six Rafales by the end of 2023, early 2024, followed by a second package by the end of 2024, early 2025 to replace the Croatian Air Force's aging MiGs, which are scheduled to retire in 2024. The aircraft taken from the French air force have an average age of nearly 10 years and will have a potential service life of at least 30 years. This is certainly not the contract of the century for France, but it is nevertheless another contract for the Rafale. And it was won in a European country, the second after Greece. This is clearly the export priority of French Minister of the Army Florence Parly.

Freedom to use the Rafale

On November 10, France submitted an offer for Rafales compatible with both NATO and EU missions as part of the renewal of the Croatian fighter aircraft fleet. "A project that would be structuring for cooperation between our two countries, and for a stronger Europe of defense," explained then Armed Forces Minister Florence Parly on Twitter during her November 2020 visit to Croatia. And the French commercial offer was competitive. The Paris proposal would therefore amount to less than 1 billion euros, while the other favorite (Lockheed Martin) proposed the new F-16 Block 70/72 Viper for an amount estimated between 1.6 and 1.8 billion euros. But the American group would have considerably lowered their offer.

In recent days Paris and Dassault Aviation believed in the Rafale's chances. "We continue to believe that we have a very good chance," said a source close to the matter. And rightly so, despite a certain amount of skepticism generated by the relentless American lobbying of the Croatians. Florence Parly visited Croatia twice last year in less than a year. This was the first visit by a French Minister of Defense since the country's independence. The French offer ended up triumphing in Croatia against the American ogre. The Rafale's number one asset remains its freedom of use. This is not the case with an American aircraft. The Croatians have understood this...

Translated with http://www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
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herciv

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shadowhawk

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Unread post28 May 2021, 17:43

herciv wrote:And Croatia will fly Rafales!


Highly doubtful.
They said the same for F-16 Block 30 Barak/Brakeet.

There is a fun fact about croatian airforce and Rafale. About 6-7 years ago, there was an evaluation of possible candidates which concluded, among other things, that Rafale was not a viable option due to costs - As a recommendation, only single engined options were deemed suitable for Croatian AF use(and those more familiar with the matter might say even light single engined jets like FA-50 would be a tough mountain to climb).

This is a joke of a tender, just like CroAF is a joke - the prior tender concluded that a 30 year old F-16 Barak is cheaper to fly than a new Gripen/F-16. That's everything one needs to know about how viable Rafale is for croatia.
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herciv

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Unread post28 May 2021, 18:04

shadowhawk wrote:
herciv wrote:And Croatia will fly Rafales!


Highly doubtful.

Last week it was doubtfull. Now it is done as the croatian president has given officially its choice.
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Unread post28 May 2021, 18:13

herciv wrote:
shadowhawk wrote:
herciv wrote:And Croatia will fly Rafales!


Highly doubtful.

Last week it was doubtfull. Now it is done as the croatian president has given officially its choice.


You don't get it...
Laws of nature and flying do not change because the president of Croatia says so.
Like I said, it's a joke. Too bad it was not made public in April 1st.
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Unread post28 May 2021, 19:10

While Croatia probable don't have money for this deal they will still go with it. Reason is simple our AF became lot stronger because we got more less free second hand MiG-29s from Russia and Belarus. So they need to counter that even though they are in NATO and chance of Serbia attack them is 0. But because of internal politics they need to do something.

Btw what is quite interested,1980s Yugoslavian Novi Avion/Yu supersonik project was nicknamed baby Rafale because it shared noticeable design similarities with Rafale and some sources mentioned french connection in that project:
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Unread post29 May 2021, 02:22

Novi Avon was overlap to Gripen. No real market.

Even a cheap JF-17 has little market penetration.
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