Croatia begins evaluating new fighters

[basher54321]

ZAGREB (Reuters) November 11, 2020 - Croatia’s defence ministry said on Wednesday it has begun evaluating offers from three bidders after it said it wanted to buy fighter jets to modernise its air force.

The defence ministry said Croatia would evaluate the offers from the United States for F-16 jets made by Lockheed Martin Co, from France for Dassault Rafale fighters made by Dassault and from Sweden for Gripen planes made by Sweden’s Saab AB.

“We expect to enter the stage of decision-making in early 2021,” the ministry said in a statement.

The ministry did not give details about the offers or the number of aircraft it aims to buy.

Croatia joined NATO in 2009 and the European Union in 2013. Its air force has a squadron of Russian-made MiG-21 jets dating from its past within the former Yugoslavia, but they are outdated and only a few are currently operational.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/croatia- ... NKBN27R1IY


This was the previous attempt viewtopic.php?f=32&t=53987&p=399687&hilit=Croatia#p399687

[Patriot]

Some month or so ago they announced that the definitive decision will be announced on the 12th of December this year.

[hythelday]

Some month or so ago they announced that the definitive decision will be announced on the 12th of December this year.

Banozic said in mid-September that December 12 was the deadline for the interdepartmental commission on the purchase of aircraft to recommend which offer should be chosen. He said that the commission would hold one-on-one talks with each bidder and that there were different elements that would be crucial for the final decision, such as the number of flight simulators, the weapons package, pilot training, the repayment plan and cooperation between the countries. He also said he expected the bidders to lower their asking price.

Croatia is buying 12 fighter jets and has received four offers. The United States is offering the new F-16 Block 70, Sweden is offering the new Gripen C/D model, while France and Israel are offering used aircraft – Rafale and F-16 Block 30 respectively.

https://www.croatiaweek.com/croatia-fig ... l-for-now/

Norway (used F-16s), Italy (used Eurofighters), Greece (used F-16s) were also invited but dropped out for various reasons:

The invitation to tender for new aircraft was delivered to the United States of America for F-16, and Sweden for JAS Gripen, while the invitation for used aircraft was delivered to France for Rafale, Italy for Eurofigher, and Norway, Greece, and Israel for F-16 jets.

https://www.thedubrovniktimes.com/news/ ... ghter-jets

If US clears the Israeli jets this time then that is probably the package to beat: last time the offer was 477$ million for jets with weapons, Gripen was 1,2$ billion without, new Block 70 Vipers were 1,6$.

Used Rafales certainly make this a bit interesting. I wonder if the "new" Gripens offered are the ones SAAB built for "future customers" but SweAF did not want. I don't think they build legacy Gripen anymore? Or is the "new Gripen C/D model" code word for Gripen E/F? That would sort of explain why it isn't in the list.

[edpop]

I heard that that E/F models were converted from C/D models...............not new builds.
Switzerland had an option to procure 22 Gripen E aircraft to be delivered between 2018 and 2021 under the agreement but backed out of the deal. Maybe these are the planes they are offering Croatia??

[hythelday]

I heard that that E/F models were converted from C/D models...............not new builds.
Switzerland had an option to procure 22 Gripen E aircraft to be delivered between 2018 and 2021 under the agreement but backed out of the deal. Maybe these are the planes they are offering Croatia??

Gripen C can't be be converted into Gripen E because those are completely different airfaremes, much like an F/A-18C cannot be converted into F/A-18E. It was SAAB's original plan, but they have since dropped the idea.

There are some zero flight hours Gripens Cs sitting in storage somewhere in Linköping, the ones that Swedish government funded hoping SAAB would score an export contract somewhere (it did not). My guess is that those are prime suspects.

[Boman]

Israeli F-16's were barred by the US last time around as the US would only allow resale of de-modified Vipers to Croatia. (Ie the Israeli F-16's had to be according to Nato standard, not Israeli standard)

The swiss never signed any contract for Gripens, as the referrendum said "NO" before any contract could be signed. So Gripen E/F for Switzerland never materialized beyond talks. FWIW it wasn't even developed enough to be flying at the time

[madrat]

This is the size of country where F-5s and MiG-21s make sense and not much else.

How can Croatia entertain flying F-16 at any meaningful tempo?

[edpop]

I heard that that E/F models were converted from C/D models...............not new builds.
Switzerland had an option to procure 22 Gripen E aircraft to be delivered between 2018 and 2021 under the agreement but backed out of the deal. Maybe these are the planes they are offering Croatia??

Gripen C can't be be converted into Gripen E because those are completely different airfaremes, much like an F/A-18C cannot be converted into F/A-18E. It was SAAB's original plan, but they have since dropped the idea.

There are some zero flight hours Gripens Cs sitting in storage somewhere in Linköping, the ones that Swedish government funded hoping SAAB would score an export contract somewhere (it did not). My guess is that those are prime suspects.

Gripen E orders and deliveries
Orders for the new generation aircraft for Sweden are based on the initial agreements signed between Saab and Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) in February and March 2012. The agreement calls for the modification of 60 Gripen C aircraft to Gripen E configuration for Sweden from 2013 to 2026. Three development orders under the agreement have been made by 2013.

[hythelday]

I heard that that E/F models were converted from C/D models...............not new builds.
Switzerland had an option to procure 22 Gripen E aircraft to be delivered between 2018 and 2021 under the agreement but backed out of the deal. Maybe these are the planes they are offering Croatia??

Gripen C can't be be converted into Gripen E because those are completely different airfaremes, much like an F/A-18C cannot be converted into F/A-18E. It was SAAB's original plan, but they have since dropped the idea.

There are some zero flight hours Gripens Cs sitting in storage somewhere in Linköping, the ones that Swedish government funded hoping SAAB would score an export contract somewhere (it did not). My guess is that those are prime suspects.

Gripen E orders and deliveries
Orders for the new generation aircraft for Sweden are based on the initial agreements signed between Saab and Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) in February and March 2012. The agreement calls for the modification of 60 Gripen C aircraft to Gripen E configuration for Sweden from 2013 to 2026. Three development orders under the agreement have been made by 2013.

8 years ago they still thought Gripen E would be an upgrade of old airframes. They have since dropped the idea. Grpen C cannot be converted into E. They even dropped the idea of reusing smaller subsystems, let alone the fuselage. There are Swedish sources about that in one of the Gripen threads.

[spad_s.xiii]

Gripen C can't be be converted into Gripen E because those are completely different airfaremes, much like an F/A-18C cannot be converted into F/A-18E. It was SAAB's original plan, but they have since dropped the idea.

There are some zero flight hours Gripens Cs sitting in storage somewhere in Linköping, the ones that Swedish government funded hoping SAAB would score an export contract somewhere (it did not). My guess is that those are prime suspects.

Gripen E orders and deliveries
Orders for the new generation aircraft for Sweden are based on the initial agreements signed between Saab and Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) in February and March 2012. The agreement calls for the modification of 60 Gripen C aircraft to Gripen E configuration for Sweden from 2013 to 2026. Three development orders under the agreement have been made by 2013.

8 years ago they still thought Gripen E would be an upgrade of old airframes. They have since dropped the idea. Grpen C cannot be converted into E. They even dropped the idea of reusing smaller subsystems, let alone the fuselage. There are Swedish sources about that in one of the Gripen threads.

I have no idea, but I wonder if this really was Saab's original plan/hope from the beginning, or if they changed their offer to SwAF after the Swiss bailed out, as there are so large differences between C and E, e.g. the length of the C is 14,1 m and 15,2 m for E, landing gear in the wings for E, different/larger wings, new EW, avionics, and so on?

[XanderCrews]

Gripen E orders and deliveries
Orders for the new generation aircraft for Sweden are based on the initial agreements signed between Saab and Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) in February and March 2012. The agreement calls for the modification of 60 Gripen C aircraft to Gripen E configuration for Sweden from 2013 to 2026. Three development orders under the agreement have been made by 2013.

That "plan" was long abandoned. like so many things Gripen NG/Gripen E, theres been over decade of speculations before the first prototype even took to the skies. its 2020 and still not supposed to be operational until next year. This was a program that started in 2006 BTW. 15 years later to upgrade a Gripen with an engine that was already developed and in operation.

There has been so much company propaganda spread and retracted, so many rumors, and so many fanboy claims and just flat out brainwashing (people claim the Gripen is always the cheapest option, even when there is no evidence, and even when evidence directly contradicts that claim and its not actually the cheapest option) that its nearly impossible to find actual real world information on the gripen.

I do know this, The Gripen E has had such a terrible time with sales, that as it stands at the moment there are fewer than 100 Gripen E's on order after 15 straight years of pimping it. Theyre built by hand, and are no where near being efficient to rpoduce, and thanks to the concessions made to brazil they have 2 production lines on an already small batch of fighters. Like all things Gripen, the original claims aren't looking so rosy with time. Brazil was supposed to get "full rights" and a full production line, but more and more of them are going to be built in Sweden and "finished" in Brazil and of course Saab can't promise rights to property they don't own. a large percentage of the Gripen E is the property of the UK and engine is GE's...


again the first prototype flew in 2017. there was over 10 years of "moving air" wherein claims and ideas like being "Rebuilt" from old gripens was nothing more than fiction and never came to fruition. I guess thats the beauty of an airplane that isn't flying yet, or even built. It can just be whatever anyone wants it to be.

Super cruise? Sure!

Cheap? Why not!!

Entire full right on whole productions overseas? you betcha!

Rebuilt from old gripens? Sure whatever gets us funding and gets this passed through the FMV.


2020 and still not in service, but there's literally thousands of pages of speculation that never came to fruition on this airplane. Theres still people that talk of it as if its already a done deal. not in service, and yet operationally cheaper. Nowhere near enough units built to approach optimal construction rates/cost (wright curve) and yet magically cheaper than everything else to buy. in Finland, even the hyper-mega-cheap Gripen E broke their price cap. just like the F-35 and SH. which if the rumors about its amazing low cost were true would be no issue. The fact that Gripen E is in the same price ballpark as the SH which is "twice as much airplane" and the Notoriously impossibly expensive F-35 is a testimate to the absolute failure of the Gripen E's cost claims. how an F-35 is the bad kind of 77 million each, but a gripen E is the good kind of 77 million each, since its "cheaper" is beyond me. how on earth 64 Gripen E broke the Finn's 10 billion dollar price cap is truly a great mystery. Remember that the original F-35 for Canada plan was 65 airplanes for the high end of 8.9 billion dollars.

if Croatia has a brain in their head they will avoid the Gripen E like the plague, as so many others have passed on it previously.

[hythelday]

Croatian government to receive feasibility study for procurement of fighter jets next week


https://www.croatiaweek.com/croatian-go ... next-week/

The interdepartmental commission for the procurement of multipurpose fighter jets will meet next week to send a feasibility study recommending the best option for Croatia to the government, government spokesman Marko Milic told Hina on Friday.

“In order to protect the integrity of the entire process, the recommendation is a secret, and the final decision will be made by the government,” Milic said.

No announcment yet, and unfortunately we won't see the ranking.

[Shimud]

This is the size of country where F-5s and MiG-21s make sense and not much else.

How can Croatia entertain flying F-16 at any meaningful tempo?

Implies new light combat aircraft, KAI FA-50 or PAC JF-17, are what they could (or may be should) look into instead.

[hythelday]

This is the size of country where F-5s and MiG-21s make sense and not much else.

How can Croatia entertain flying F-16 at any meaningful tempo?

Implies new light combat aircraft, KAI FA-50 or PAC JF-17, are what they could (or may be should) look into instead.

Gotta say that madrat's theory makes no sense. Quite the contrary - it's extremely easy to justify F-16s:

1) Larger airframe gives you more hardpoints (especially with CFTs)
2) Larger airframe gives you more fuel capacity. If it's not the range you're looking for, then you can trade that for a) more time on station b) more AB use c) better T:W ratio if you only take off with ##% of fuel you need to go the short distance and fight instead of 100%
3) If you are not looking for "heavy strike" loads, then a larger airframe still gives you more performance (better to say less penalty), e.g. FA-50 or even Gripen C with two 1000# and 2x AAMs vs F-16 with same load.

Moreover, Croatia is not a small country by far. Funny-looking, yes, but the distances are not small. Even more, because 12 aircraft mean only single base, then Croatian fighters may be required to fly further than a larger country's fighters that have the commodity of multiple squadrons in multiple places.

Their current Fishbed base is near Zagreb. Dubrovnik is 200 nm away if one uses Bosnian airspace, 240 nm if one stays over Croatia. Vukovar is 130 nm and Pula is 110 nm.

According to the logic that country size determines jet type then countries that should get rid of Gripens, F-16 or even larger heavy fighters are:

1) Denmark
2) The Netherlands
3) Belgium
4) Portugal
5) Slovakia
6) Czechia
7) Bulgaria
Austria
9) Swithzerland
10) Hungary
11) Greece
12) Oman
13) Bahrain
14) UAE
15) Quatar
16) Kuwait
17) Singapore
18) Israel
19) Spouth Korea

etc.

But of course they don't, because size of the country is very low on the list (unless it is a very big country) when deciding upon the type of fighter. So if Croatia can afford F-16, then they should get them.

[Corsair1963]

Honestly, the choice is more political than anything else. As most new NATO Members in Eastern Europe. Want closer ties with the US on a Defense/Military Level. Which, is why the F-16 has to be the favorite. Regardless of the merit one way or the other....


IMHO