Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Since FMS (and direct commercial sales) don't involve US $$, I don't understand your concern. If you wish, point me to an old message if you have already discussed this before.

Reason I ask is that the export business (some of which is FMS but not all) is misunderstood by the VAST majority of folks out there. It's my personal crusade to try to clear up misconceptions where I can since that was my last active duty assignment.

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Enthusiast Joined: Jan 10, 2005 - 03:27 AM Posts: 29

Scorpion1alpha wrote:

This isn't set in stone yet, so a wait and see type thing. BUT, IMO, a bad move and decision if the Raptor is exported.

I also agree with TC. Why does Japan need it? The F-22 was never meant to be exported and it will have to be extensively modified internally at least if there is any consideration to. But the F-35 is designed to be exported from the start and seems to fit their criterias better.

I skimmed through the posts in this thread, and read some of them regarding the ramifications of selling the Raptor, and I'd like to add my $0.02.

The AFROTC cadets at USF and UCF just went on a base visit to Tyndall AFB and we spoke with a Raptor IP who just accrued his 135th hour while we were there. We had an informal Q&A session in the lobby of our La Quinta Inn and I asked him about the (NY Times?) article regarding selling the F-22 abroad. He said that currently, in congress, there was absolutely no chance of that happening. He referenced the JSF program and the fact that we are cutting back on the technology being sold to the Brits to be different from what was originally agreed, and how that was a joint program from the beginning (with a focus on the Brits being very close allies, though not geographically).(And as was mentioned earlier, government policies change, and ours most likely will in 2-3 years time pending certain political outcomes.)

When I was at Honeywell for a co-op during the spring of 2004, I was working in the defense aerospace section and a co-worker told me something I will paraphrase. Even though the F-15s and F-16s are old birds that have been sold to other countries, if there was a comm box that had all US encryption codes hard coded into it, that box would have to undergo a process to maintain security of US aircrews and communications before that airframe was shipped out.

If you think about it, would a country that doesn't let you take a photo of an F-15 cockpit, one that rolled off the line in '79 and is now used only for tactics training, sell you their newest baby that just became operational? I think not.

Money. We are running our government on credit. We have sold out whole industries to offshore providers, under the lemming process of "free trade" ( vs. fair trade ) . Politicians are paid off and owned as a corporate commodity. We produce less and less here each year.We sold J-weapon tech.... ( JDAM, JSOW etc ) to foreign countries ( dumb ) and any other numerous forms of selling powerful weapons. We helped fund Israeli R&D and also gave a way tech... tech that is now on the seeker heads of Chicom heat seeking missiles. Patriot SAM tech was bled to China. And I am only using a few .... few examples. So when M.I.C. ( military industrial complex ) needs money...almost anything is up for sale. If JSF doesn't make the money on FMS they want or gets canceled. "Selling" ( FMS isn't always a direct sale but smoke and mirrors with different colors of money....many times U.S. tax payer money..... ) .... Seeing F-22 in foreign hands some day isn't impossible. And again, as much as I hate FMS. F-22 in the hands of Japan and Australia is a very very good idea. That is the kind of FMS that has real benefits ( compared to how we gave away the farm on the Polish F-16 deal ). Look around you. Today, everything has a big "For Sale" sign on it in the U.S.
Congress and this administration ( and previous ones ) are running one big yard sale selling every important strategic asset ( not just military things either.... our infastructure ) this nation has to foreign interests. I sincerely hope your education can get you a useful job that won't be at serf wages or isle 9 at Walmart.

Several issues. Sometimes selling technology is better than not because by selling it you remove the temptation for folks to develop it themselves. That way, the capabilities are known and can in some cases be restricted. For example, GPS-guided bombs aren't that tough once someone shows it can be done. Why encourage someone to develop that skill when we can sell them ours and lock out the software and other important stuff.

And ELP, FMS is only US money when it started out as FMF money (which is a political handout to keep folks as strategic allies) and comes with it a requirement to be spent here. I will repeat myself...FMS and other related issues are for the express purpose of maintaining relationships with countries. Before Desert Storm, I don't think anyone really considered that there would be a real war in Iraq. Sure we planned for it, always do, but doesn't mean that we expect it to happen. But because of the deals we had going with Saudi Arabia et al when we needed access to the region to push Saddam out of Kuwait, we were able to get it. THAT'S what FMS buys us.

As far as technology "bleed", sure we made mistakes...who doesn't. But we've learned have have a pretty robust export control process in place now. Technology also helps in that there are better ways to protect stuff from exploitation then there used to be.

As for the F-22 pilot from Tyndall saying "no way", unfortunately he is not in a position to know what goes on in the bowels of the 5-sided daycare center in terms of policy in this area, so I would take his comments with a big grain of salt. My old office is running point on this sale so I've been pretty close to it. Obviously can't comment on the specifics, but get real tired of attacks on the FMS business from folks who haven't worked it and can't possibly understand all the nuances.

out

Could Japan be the first export customer ?

http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish ... 005381.php

Quote:

But Air Marshal Shepherd said the F-22 was too expensive.

"The limited numbers provided by the budget would not be enough to provide adequate air superiority coverage," he said.

"Analysis and common sense shows that 30-40 airframes - no matter how capable they are - won't be enough to defend Australia."

( Sydney Morning Herald )

Yet.... the F-18 can't do the job.... and getting rid of the F-111 will leave a large gap.... JSF won't be arriving for a while and it won't really be what is needed. Sorry. He is wrong. F-22 can do the job in a shocking fashion. And still be able to afford a low mix of upkeep on F-18s and a buy of F-18E/F for low mix general use when the old F-18s give up the ghost. Also not mentioned are industry offsets as Australia has an aircraft industry currently supporting big players. Including offsets for all the other stuff they buy from us including the C-17 now under consideration by the RAAF. The simple wave of the hand with "F-22 being too expensive"... leaves out the part that you can walk into any air space in that part of the world with the F-22 and control it. There won't be an enemy air force after the first 20 F-22s get done with them. End of story. He is like our "Howie" in the USAF the other day, saying JSF is the future of air domination. WANTED: Air Force General with a creative brain. Apply at front office. Bring photo and resume.

I think both Japan and Australia are very much interested in the F-22 Raptor. Personally, I would think it would be in the interest of the US Goverment to sell it! As it will never be able to purchase the F-22 in numbers to protect all of its worldwide commitments. Further, the Asian Theater could very well be the next "hot spot"? Another thing to consider. A joint buy of Raptors by the RAAF and/or JASDF. Could be more F-22's for the USAF! Applause

I myself am a Aussie, with the F-111's being phased out we need to have the F/A-18s taking over the duties of the Pig. But in doing so we will lose out in our Air suppiority. The F-22 would easily fit the job for all of our F/A-18's, we could move the F/A-18s into supporting roles or even have them be the succsessor of the F-111's.

With the C-17's coming in with (i do believe) the M1A1 Abram tanks why not spend the money now to get a few of the most advanced Air-to-Air fighter in the world now?
because the more the USAF work on the F-22's the more they will cost if they sell them later down track.

Im entirely for the purchase of the F-22's (if the USAF allows it) for the Australian Air Force.

If Australia wants to fly me there and give a good solid briefing on why the F-22 is the right jet. PM me with some airplane ticket info. Laughing

Watching people trying to think that are a little slow on the learning skillset, is PAINFUL. Laughing

Sydney Herald.....
http://www.smh.com.au/news/National/Lab ... 40925.html

cywolf32 wrote:

If there's any one country I trust the F-22 with, its the japanese. They have been more than trustworthy and faithful enough to justify it.

Hello.. Without wishing to sound inflammatory in any way, can you please clarify this statement for me so I can understand exactly how the Japanese have been so faithful and trustworthy that other allies such as us here in Australia have not? Thank you..

Aussie-

I'd actually put ya'll up there with the Britts and (believe it or not) the French. If it was common knowledge how much the French actually do to help us out there wouldn't be so much French bashing. I think the only reason we don't share tech with them is because our defense industries are in a healthy competition.

I do believe a certain Japanese corporation sold some rather sensitive tech to some adversaries of ours (submarine screws); so I'm not sure why wolf trusts them so much. As far as selling F-22's international... not a good idea. Wide scale proliferation dramatically increases the probability of disclosure (intentional or inadvertent) of capes we'd like to keep quiet. I'm quite sure your military will be EXTREMELY pleased with the superbug once you receive it... especially once its full capabilities are mature.

:: Some posts edited/removed by moderator. Please keep it nice. ::

Off topic but might be of interest to some who viewed the removed posts

http://allaboutfrogs.org/weird/general/frenchfrogs.html

Thanks viper1234...

I always like to think of us as being pretty loyal to our US friends as often as possible... We've fought alongside US troops now in WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam, Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan. I'm very proud of the ties between our two nations for sure...

As far as the Raptor goes, naturally the US Government has every right to choose not to sell something it has spent billions of dollars developing. Why should anyone else get all that for free?

Just a shame our Aussie Government never had the foresight in the first place to order the Viper instead of the go-between hornet...

viper1234 wrote:

Off topic but might be of interest to some who viewed the removed posts

http://allaboutfrogs.org/weird/general/frenchfrogs.html

Off topic and a clear violation of forum rules...Check

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Air Force plans to sell F-22As to allies