Forum: Military Aircraft of the Cold War

Yeah, but what about the Wright Flyer Gums????

Tell us the REAL story!

(*PS, A-7 and F-4 were my dream jets as a kid... )

Cylon

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Had to be around a Navy base eh?
Chickenlegs

Phantom was and will always be my favorite. Though I cursed it a few times for the scares it left me.

Interesting photo of USN A-7's at the boneyard. Here

Pictures like that always hit me right where it hurts Crying or Very sad

. I can think of a few museums that could use a SLUF, or maybe a few collectors Wink

. I'd rather see them flying than in a museum, but I'd rather see them in a museum than wasting away out in the desert.

IIRC, the -K was pork to keep the line open. ("Pork-the OTHER white meat")

At Edwards (at least in '92), the Test Pilot School operated two of the original YA-7D prototypes as well as one of the -K tubs. As an FTE, I only got to ride the tub but that bird was a hoot Cool

One thing that amazed me was how high off the ground you sat. Climbing in and out made me feel like a mountain goat. Plane was rock solid when it flew.

The pilot-types used the YA-7D in the spin/departure series. First gliders, A-37s, and then the F-16 deep stall ride (Us engineer types did these as well). The coop de grass was the pilots then took the single seat A-7 in only their 2nd ride and repeatedly threw it out of control. Didn't spin so much as it whipped. All on tracking video. Our class was the last to fly the SLUF as they were unceremoniously retired from the school Sad

TC wrote:

Jeremiah Weed. Ah, the legend continues. Very Happy

I've heard several stories about Jeremiah Weed, and its alleged discovery by a pilot somewhere in Nevada. It was brought to Nellis and became some big legend/myth/etc. within the pilot community. I've never seen a bottle of it, but I'm trying hard to find it. Til then, must stick with my pal Jack Daniel and his partner Jimmy Beam. I must remember all of this info about bombing. Hopefully this will become useful to me within the near future, as TC really wants to go back in, as a pilot.

Please see http://home.comcast.net/~dillons1/weed.htm to learn the full story of "the weed"!

Oh jeez! I'm having a Gums moment here! I know Col. Anderegg, the author of the Jeremiah Weed article. He used to be an Eagle Driver here at Tyndall. He also had a very hot daughter...but that's a story for another day class. If you ever happen to catch the History Channel documentary of the F-15, they interview Col. Anderegg. Great story, and I would vouch for that one to be true, because it goes along perfectly with the same version of the story that I have heard from a few reputable sources.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Hell, I having flashbacks reading last few posts.......

With only 1400 hrs in the A-37 and a thousand in the SLUF..... oh well.

It broke my heart when the test pilot pukes spun the last active duty USAF A-37 into the ground. Never spun the thing, but I did many in the trainer version, including inverted spins. Good, honest jet for spin training. I would expect that the A-37 was geeky, especially if tip tanks were full. How about it, Roscoe - tell us!!!

With all the pylons and the tip tanks, and high wing-loading compared to the T-37, the A-37 could 'mush' easily, and not have the sharp break when stalling. Was more like a bent wing, seemed to me. I would demo to my Vee students this, as on low alt releases you could wind up 'mushing' and had to ease off the back pressure to get it flying again. In fact, I would gradually pull back at idle and get the thing mushing, descend at 10,000 feet per minute at 60 knots indicated, using rudder (NOT AILERON) to keep wings level. A real neat way to lose altitude in a short horizontal distance.

I never 'departed' the SLUF, although I was tempted to in order to increase the 'macho' factor at the bar. Sucker would simply lose lateral stability and yaw violently, then go end over end and sideways at the same time. Folks that witnessed this from six o'clock were astounded. It came out real easy, according to all who ever departed it. I just couldn't make myself use aileron when the thing was shaking so hard, trying to tell me to ease off. Rudder, rudder, rudder.

USAF didn't even have many A-7's for displays, and even used a lot here at Eglin as targets. Sniff, sniff. Man, I loved that jet and it got me home after many harrowing missions. Besides, the two biggest fears of any fighter/attack pilot were not a concern. We always knew where we were and we weren't worried about running outta gas. heh heh.

out,

and thanks for the good poop, Roscoe, you yute!!!

Maybe something here that you can confirm/dispel for me Gums...Some of the older Tweet drivers that I've known have always claimed that the Tweet's engines were better than the non-afterburning J-85s in the Dragonfly. What are your thoughts? Anyway, to the A-7: The Corsair that I was always interested in learning more about, was the J model, perhaps? I can't remember. Someone help me out! This was the Corsair that could go supersonic, even with a decidedly "non-supersonic" design. Just goes to show that if you stick a powerful enough engine in the plane, anything might be possible. Wish they would've kept the D's around for more years. Several Guard units would have been very satisfied with them. I know McEntire was, until they got Vipers.

Dream time. Just think how many JDAMs, and SDBs a "modern" digitial A-7 could carry today. Shocked

Gums wrote:

It broke my heart when the test pilot pukes spun the last active duty USAF A-37 into the ground. Never spun the thing, but I did many in the trainer version, including inverted spins. Good, honest jet for spin training. I would expect that the A-37 was geeky, especially if tip tanks were full. How about it, Roscoe - tell us!!!

The A-37 that spun in was not the last. The school had 3 I think; they continued flying the other two for a while until one day during a post-flight the tail damn near fell off...permanent grounding immediately followed.

The crash happened because there was an imbalance in the tip tanks. SOP required the tip tanks to be empty prior to entering the first spin. Something happened to the dump valve on one side that prevented a full dump (as I recall, there was no fuel gauge for the tip tanks). Once it hit a fully developed spin it wouldn't recover Sad

. The crew was a Swedish USAF TPS grad refreshing his spin recovery training in preparing for Gripen testing (call sign "Tex") and a school IP. Both got out OK. Very Happy

Gums wrote:

With all the pylons and the tip tanks, and high wing-loading compared to the T-37, the A-37 could 'mush' easily, and not have the sharp break when stalling. Was more like a bent wing, seemed to me. I would demo to my Vee students this, as on low alt releases you could wind up 'mushing' and had to ease off the back pressure to get it flying again. In fact, I would gradually pull back at idle and get the thing mushing, descend at 10,000 feet per minute at 60 knots indicated, using rudder (NOT AILERON) to keep wings level. A real neat way to lose altitude in a short horizontal distance.

The A-37 had some pretty eye-opening Shocked

spin modes. Entrys were a hoot, resulting in an inverted spin as often as not. I have my video...looking for somewhere I can convert it to an AVI/MPEG format. Will post someday when I succeed.

Gums wrote:

I never 'departed' the SLUF, although I was tempted to in order to increase the 'macho' factor at the bar. Sucker would simply lose lateral stability and yaw violently, then go end over end and sideways at the same time. Folks that witnessed this from six o'clock were astounded. It came out real easy, according to all who ever departed it. I just couldn't make myself use aileron when the thing was shaking so hard, trying to tell me to ease off. Rudder, rudder, rudder.

We have some video of that as well...wicked ride but recovery was either neutralize the stick or full forward....don't recall which...but it worked everytime.

Note to self: Gotta find that video...

Salute!

THNX for info Roscoe!

ELP-breath!!!!! SLUF had digital in 1968!!!!!! We had same IBM 16-bit doofer that the Lunar Module had, ahem.........

Also had solid state armament control system. Neat, but too quick for the existing mechanical multiple ejection racks, and we had hung bombs when trying to drop with min spacing. A neat deal, as we dialed in the feet and let the computers set the milliseconds, duhhhhh.

Our digital NAVWD system had super bomb accuracy, super nav capability and was fairly reliable. If it worked when you fired up the jet, it never broke in flight.

Oh yeah, then we had a doppler to help the INS(or use by it's own self), plus the projected map, plus a dedicated UHF DF radio, plus FM-VHF, plus an aux UHF (recieve only), plus a radar altimiter, plus a terrain-following-terrain avoidance radar, plus............. Geee, and the TF-41 sipped gas, so we could fly for 3 hours without refueling. Oh yeah, we carried more ord than the B-17's did in WW@, but 3 times as fast and same range.

Did I mention that I loved that jet?

TC!!!! Tell your buddy he don't know squat!!!! The J-85's we had in the Dragonfly had more mil-thrust than the ones in the T-38. About 2800 pounds per engine. This is important, because each J-69 in the trainer only had 1000 pounds of thrust. So just one motor in the A-37 had one and a half times the thrust of both T-37 motors. Then we had that other motor, heh heh. Talk about an over-powered beast........

We carried more than the F-100's at Bien Hoa, and we got to 20,000 feet about the time they got to 10,000. And they had to use burner. Then we would shut one motor down and cruise to the tgt.

Only problem we had with the J-85's was they were 'miniature' jet engines. Hell, maintenance would haul them out using a Radio Flyer wagon hooked to a moped - honest!!!! The blades were so skinny that we had erosion problems from the sand, rockert attack debris, etc. This manifested itself when trying to advance the rpm after a dive bomb pass, and the motor (one or both) would stall. Not a conventional compressor stall, but what we called 'rollback'. No bangs or anything, just a burbling sound and EGT went up, rpm stagnated. Pull throttle back, slowly advance and voila!!!!

Problem was blades looked like scalloped pen knives. Sand eroded them easily. No big deal, as maint folks simply decreased the time for engine overhaul and replaced the worn blades.

Finally, the SLUF could go supersonic in a dive, and that's the original TF-41 version. In fact, on my first mission over Hanoi I forgot to pull the sucker back when diving in from 20K. Pulling off tgt was a bear, and I couldn't pull hard enough. Then I noted the airspeed at about 700 IAS!!!!! Yikes. About 50 knots above placard limit of 645 (as I recall). No problem, as speed is life, heh heh.

Oh man, those were the days my friends, but you can never go back. Just look back and relish the times, the jets and your comrades.

out,

Last edited by habu2 on Oct 22, 2004 - 06:41 AM; edited 1 time in total

TC wrote:

Anyway, to the A-7: The Corsair that I was always interested in learning more about, was the J model, perhaps? I can't remember. Someone help me out! This was the Corsair that could go supersonic, even with a decidedly "non-supersonic" design. Just goes to show that if you stick a powerful enough engine in the plane, anything might be possible.

YA-7F program - two A-7Ds were reworked with fuselage plugs, taller tail, and F100 engines. One of the two jets is at Hill AFB in their museum, not sure where the second is now.

Somewhere I have pics of the YA-7F when it was in Dayton in 1991 or so, if I find them I'll post them.

(edited for spelling... Embarassed

)

Thanks for info on that one Gums. Yeah, I think that's what the Tweet drivers were talking about, was mainly that their engines were better than the Dragonfly's because of maintenance...Then again, we didn't fly any Tweets over an area where half the damn country is shooting everything from slingshots and bottle rockets to SA-2s and ZSU-23s Shocked

Bad things man, as actor Dennis Hopper would say...

Never knew the SLUF could break Mach in a dive, although several Sabre drivers said the same thing about the F-86. The SLUF was a helluva lot more powerful than a Sabre too. Anyway, this A-7 model, and I keep thinking it was designated the J was a protoype that never made it out of the development stage. It was equipped with an afterburning engine, I believe had a longer wingspan, and might have been longer than the D model. It could break Mach going straight and level, and could carry a hellacious weapons load, but the AF decided in the late 80's that they'd rather have more Vipers.

The projected map that you mentioned was incorporated into the SLUF...What are the differences between that map, and the JTIDS, which you will find on Vipers and Strike Eagles? How was the map guided, since this was in the pre-GPS days?

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

I know, it seems A-7 had a good amount of modern toys like an F-111 in some cases.... except that the A-7s stuff worked a bit more often? Smile

When I dream, I dream big.... pssssst....Gums ( sotto voice ).

I was thinking new, new, as in modern MFD displays, todays digital nav setups, todays mission computers, etc. And while we are dreaming...... new production with modern composites where it is doable. Add the helmet display thingy, NVG capable avionics and I bet you would have a striker on par with lots of things today at less cost. ( Remember, once the enemy large SAMs and airpower are destroyed, ..... I only need a conventional bomb truck to do the work. ) Probably could have two of these airframes for every super hornet or F-15E. Laughing

......."Turn her into the wind.... launch the Corsairs off the forward cats.... " Laughing

Forum: Military Aircraft of the Cold War

SLUF - A-7D and A-7E, ahead of their time