Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

MURc wrote:

mil_hobbyist wrote:

First of all, a SAM, not a plane, downed the Nighthawk.

yeah right ,that what was served to the public Whistle

, just believe in that ! btw no way Big No No

a SAM, could lock on a stealth fighter with jamming devices like the F-117 has..think about Doh

Of curs the US Military will always denial this...unfortunately it was so an MIG21 Crazy Pilot

claimed a kill on a Stealth fighter Embarassed

just for your notice I was SHOCKED WTF

as hell as I found out about the whole thing ,and had a hard time to believe it.

Isn't it past your bed time?

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F-117 doesn't have any active EM emitters, let alone jammers.

mil_hobbyist wrote:

F-117 doesn't have any active EM emitters, let alone jammers.

Now wait, mil_hobbyist, I think he may be on to something here ... spend billions to build a stealth plane and then hang a jammer on it so that you can "see" it from anywhere.

Now, where is that "tongue-in-cheek" icon ??? Laughing

Fisk
(Sorry, sometimes SHOULDN'T listen to the voices ...)

sferrin wrote:

MURc wrote:

mil_hobbyist wrote:

First of all, a SAM, not a plane, downed the Nighthawk.

yeah right ,that what was served to the public Whistle

, just believe in that ! btw no way Big No No

a SAM, could lock on a stealth fighter with jamming devices like the F-117 [Link pending approval] about Doh

Of curs the US Military will always denial [Link pending approval] it was so an MIG21 Crazy Pilot

claimed a kill on a Stealth fighter Embarassed

just for your notice I was SHOCKED WTF

as hell as I found out about the whole thing ,and had a hard time to believe it.

Isn't it past your bed time?

Isn't it time 4 a wakeup call Shocked

I wish I had your photoshop skills, fiskerwad!

I video taped a Navy F-14A demo team in '03 pulling 7 g at an airshow in Arkansas. I understood that 6.5 g limit was directed for all Tomcats including the D becuase they were wearing out the airframes too quickly, and as mentioned it was on an honor system. I have a copy of Air Combat where a F-14 pilot talks about this. Even the QF-4 pulles more than 6.5 g. You just loose energy very quickly.

The pilot of this bird told me he would trade the AIM-54 for an AMRAAM anyday of the week. But the Navy wouldnt fund the AMRAAM for the bombcat and the F-14 got spanked in ACM training after loosing the AIM-54. Fighting AMRAAM equiped jets using the Tomcats AIM-7 didnt work very well.

F-14D against F-22 is a bad idea.

But I think the Navy should have modernized the F-14 rather than upgrading the F-18. That much development money could have developed a spectacular aircraft if spent on the F-14.

agilefalcon16 wrote:

Quote:

And that 6.5 G limit is enforced primarily through the Honor System, and is exceeded fairly regularly without any ill effects visible in the mandatory post-flight inspection required when the G-limit is exceeded. And I REALLY don't think the new-build F-14Ds are going to have the same fatigue problems as the rest of the Fleet because they're the youngest airframes.

Tell that one guy (Twin-tailed Centurion, I believe his screen name was) that it doesn't matter which variant of the Tomcat we're talking about, it would still have the G-limit of 6.5 (The F-14D still has the same airframe of previous Tomcats). Pulling more than that on a "fairly regular" basis would most definitly raise some serious wing-bending issues. Even IF the Tomcat could pull 9g's, it couldn't pull that much anywhere near as easily as a Raptor, Viper, or an Eagle. (If he still doesn't believe that the Tomcat's G-limit is 6.5, he can just check here: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/f-14-specs.htm)

Besides, once each of those three USAF aircraft (as well as the Navy's Super Hornet) recieve the modifications to use the JHMCS in combination with the new AIM-9X, they will be able to lock and fire at a target up to 90 degrees off their aircraft's nose. This deadly combo won't be given to the F-14, since most are already retired from U.S. military service.

There would be ZERO chance of a Tomcat whooping the butt of any F-22. Hell, if the Tomcat had to go to AB to catch up to the firing envelope of her AAM's there's a 50/50 chance the Tomcat would explode or suffer metal fatigue and break apart in flight.

Now that said, the Navy would have been better off developing the (what?) Tomcat 21. New engines, intakes, wings, hydraulics, radar, cockpits, panels, and skins... Along with giving the back-seater a look and shoot helmet so that both the stick jockey and back-seater could both target TWO individial aircraft at the same time in the WVR fight.... Now that would have been a really awesome capability. Along with a ram-jet'd aim-120..... Oooh, that would have been slick. They could have even done away with the back seater altogether and allowed for more internal fuel as well.

Ahhh.... farwell to one of the most beautiful fighters to ever wear the red white and blue flag of the USoA. Crying or Very sad

Meh, the F/A-18E/F stands a better chance against an F-22A than an F-14.

Alright. Enough about this. Be realistic people, remember the 6-day war of '67? How about the Bekka Valley of '82? Why on earth would either pilot let the other get off the ground? The E-2/F-14 combo and the E-3/F-22 combo would try and take max range pot shots at each other to prevent either getting airborne much less a merge and dogfight.

I've got 5 on the 22 though, but in the right hands the Turkey would give it a good run.

Thats nice an all, but an F-14 is limited by using SARH Sparrows and IR Sidewinders. It wouldnt win against much these days.

Also, the F/A-18F is the better bet, with an AESA radar, and reduced RCS, 5 or 6 of them pooling their sensor resources can possibly detect an F-22A.

Tomcat_71 wrote:

The E-2/F-14 combo and the E-3/F-22 combo would try and take max range pot shots at each other to prevent either getting airborne much less a merge and dogfight.

An E-2 is not going to detect the F-22 anymore than the S-3 did in a recent exercise when the S-3 was shot down then the two F-15's providing escorting it were killed.

Tomcat_71 wrote:

in the right hands the Turkey would give it a good run.

In which respect? If an F-22 can get on the tail of a F-16, Su-27, etc. and virtually park there keeping the piper on the middle of the fuselage (in the 'guns mode'), why would a F-14 do better? I don't know of a single flight parameter where the F-14D is anywhere close to the F-22.

skrip00 wrote:

the F/A-18F is the better bet, with an AESA radar, and reduced RCS, 5 or 6 of them pooling their sensor resources can possibly detect an F-22A.

The ALR-94 would detect the F/A-18's long before they could detect the F-22. The F-22's defensive display would illustrate its position in relationship to the F/A-18F's plus symbology to show at what range the F-22 would be detected by the F/A-18F. It is nice this F/A-18 has a second pair of eyes but, I don't think it will be a factor in this engagement. Also, why would the F-22 approach the F/A-18 from a direction where it could be detected? Why not kill all the F/A-18's from attacks along the "3-9 line"?

Adrian

So the ALR-94 can detect AESA emissions from an F/A-18F? I thought those radars were just as advanced as the ones going into the -22 and -35? Wouldnt they be inherently difficult to detect?

The only advantage of the F-14 I can think of is that it can be embarked on carrier whereas the Raptor cant. Smile

MURc wrote:

mil_hobbyist wrote:

First of all, a SAM, not a plane, downed the Nighthawk.

yeah right ,that what was served to the public Whistle

, just believe in that ! btw no way Big No No

a SAM, could lock on a stealth fighter with jamming devices like the F-117 has..think about Doh

Of curs the US Military will always denial this...unfortunately it was so an MIG21 Crazy Pilot

claimed a kill on a Stealth fighter Embarassed

just for your notice I was SHOCKED WTF

as hell as I found out about the whole thing ,and had a hard time to believe it.

Pretty graphics do not cover up a lack of understanding. Get some real facts from credible sources and then come back.

In it's time, the F-14 was a great weapon's system. If you want to put decent engines, control systems and weapons systems into a new build airframe you might have a reasonable 4th generation aircraft. For examples of this look at what the NZAF and, including engines, the RofSAF did with their A4's.

The F-14 was designed for a specific role which has now been rolled into the multi - role capability of the F/A -18's. Deck space is expensive real estate and resources are too tight to dedicate space to a sports car when a sedan will do a similar job.

I hate to say this (as I have always been a Tomcat fan) but it's kind of embarrassing that this thread has gone on for what, seven pages? The Tomcat was ahead of its time in 1976, and it was still very capable in 1986, but even by 1996 it was becoming pretty long in the tooth. Even in the late 80's our A model F-16's loved to fight them (as long as you could get by the AIM-7's, they were a piece of cake for our training wing's IP's - on the other hand the Eagle's would light our guys up).

It's now 2006 and, aviation has come as far in those thirty years, as it had in the previous thirty. 1976 technology compares with 2006 technology the same as 1976 would compare with 1946. I hate to say it, but it's true, Tomcat to Raptor is the same as Tomcat to Tigercat or Bearcat.

Mike

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

F-22 vs. F-14? Would there be any competition?