Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

CBALE 2000, your forum friend does suffer from ugly spouse syndrome! I like that one! He has just given an exercise in semantics. It may be better for you to pull out of that one gracefully!

If you put a Tomcat up against an F-22 a hundred times, the Tomcat may win once or twice. That advantage would be called...luck! Something may stop working on the Raptor or the pilot may be having a bad day Wink

F-16.net Sponsor

falconfixer860261 wrote:

If the 22 can be beaten by the 14 then we've all been duped my friends and it will be the most expensive con the world has ever seen.

Umm, no, that would be what our leaders have done with/to our Social Security system... Two Cents

This is one of the other F-14 fans replys to the topic:

Quote:

You don't need an interferometer to determine range by the method I described. All you need is a sensor capable of resolving the heat signature into a recognizable image. And I never said Red/Blue shift was used to determine range (you certainly could do that IF you knew the baseline of the target.)

Quit twisting my words.

And yes, I know the 6.5 G limit officially appies to the F-14D new builds, for no good reason because those aircraft are too young to have developed stress factures yet.

Have we been twisting his words? I didn't think so.

My reply was posted along his, does anyone think I twisted his words?
In fact,

Quote:

You don't need an interferometer to determine range by the method I described. All you need is a sensor capable of resolving the heat signature into a recognizable image.

and

Quote:

Unless I'm completely mistaken, there's a way to determine range using a single IIR sensor, if the dimensions of the target aircraft are known. For example, if you drew a straight line from the IIR sensor to each wingtip of the target, and you measured the angle between those two lines, you could measure the range to the target with pretty good accuracy if you knew the target's wingspan (and yes, the AAS-42 has enough resolution to accomplish this at extreme ranges).

read differently on my LCD. The first quote involves image resolution (?) while the second, triangulation.

For the first quote: what is this sensor you are using, what conditions are you collecting and finally, what are you supposed to do with this image? Please elaborate, as it stands, I don’t see how this will help during an intercept other than a possible identification of the target.

For the second quote: how do you know the dimensions of the threat aircraft, are you going to assume all threat have the span of an F-22? I hope you don’t encounter F-104s…
IMO, this hypothetical one-trick pony will get a pilot shot down more often than it will help him. And please provide proof this AAS-42 can do this from significant ranges…Discerning two wingtips from afar by IR is no simple task, especially with one sensor(?).

Quote:

And I never said Red/Blue shift was used to determine range (you certainly could do that IF you knew the baseline of the target.

Baseline for what? Does the F-14 have an extensive library of threat aircraft under uncountable emission states, a supercomputer(s) to sort all the data, and discriminate the threat from the data collected from this inexistent sensor?

cbale2000, I have a feeling this discussion is a waste of e-paper...

Quote:

And yes, I know the 6.5 G limit officially appies to the F-14D new builds, for no good reason because those aircraft are too young to have developed stress factures yet.

cbale2000, tell that gut on the other forum: At what point are you just going give up already, the 6.5 G-limit was there to make sure those "new" Tomcats don't start to develop stress-related problems until later on in it's service life. Because, unlike the F-16, F-15, F/A-18, and the F/A-22 (all of which, at some point, were involved in TVC testing), the Tomcat's airframe wasn't primarily designed to withstand the impact of 9g's. With that being said, do you seriously believe that the Tomcat (any variant) with a lower thrust-to-weight ratio (slower acceleration), and a higher wing loading (larger turning circle) than the F-16, F/A-18C/E, F-15, can actually be a danger to the F/A-22? If so, you're wrong, waaaay wrong.

Also, because the AIM-54 (Phoenix) missile is now retired, the remaining Tomcat's in service with the USN are now left with the AIM-7 Sparrow missile (a missile that is much less superior than the AIM-120) So, this would mean that even the F-16 (an aircraft the costs half as much as the F-14, an is cheaper to maintain) would have a superior WVR preformance (as always), and have a superior BVR preformance as well.

I know that the F-14 is obviously you're favorite aircraft (like my favorite is the F-16), but we've just got to face the facts here. Our favorite aircraft (as well as other 4th generation aircraft) wouldn't stand a chance against 5th generation stealth aircraft, like the Raptor (Even though during one exercise, an F-16 did once manage to get a "kill" against the F/A-22, making it the only aircraft to have done so. Not even the Eagle has ever achieved that).

Ok, I posted you're comments. Now to wait for him to reply. Rolling Eyes

On the latest IRST systems I have read about, one I looked closely at was the PIRATE on the EF2000. This system looks in wavelengths in two bands, with supercooling it can "see" the higher temps created by skin friction on opposing aircraft, no range for this feature is given although an upper limit of 80nm in "perfect" conditions has been hinted at. Weather affects these types of IRST significantly.

In all of these systems the IRST was used to scan, to allow the carrying aircraft to have its radar "silent". When a targets bearing and elevation is found, the RADAR is switched on to take over the intercept with radar guided missiles.This is what the system on the F-14 does isn`t it? I have never seen an IRST system used to guide a radar missile to a kill on a turning target.
The RAF EF2000 has a laser warning receiver which negates the covert tracking capability provided on the Flanker and Fulcrums with their laser range finding and IRST gear. These two aircraft have laser rangers because IRST alone cannot give you range.

IRST systems depending on how advanced they are can give you help in "classifying" threats though, I believe they are called long wave polarimetric IR seekers. They rely on polarization between objects and their backgrounds when no temperature difference exhists. They are highly dependent on weather and enviromental conditions and god only knows what range they work at. You still don`t get range though. They need clever algorithms and some serious processing power.

Ok, first off, planes are always HERs, not HIMs! In a gender context, always refer to the plane as "She" or "Her". You owe us a round of drinks for that one! Wink

The F-14 would stand no chance against a Raptor. The radar is good for tracking from long range, but the Tomcat carries no BVR missiles. The Phoenix is now a museum piece, and the Tomcats never carried the AMRAAM.

The "new" F-14 you speak of is D model is 21 years old. It's a turkey against Eagles, Vipers, and Hornets. How do you figure success against something it is incapable of tracking, let alone being incapable of turning against?

The Raptor is capable of supressing IR emissions, even in supercruise and burner.

The 22 can hypothetically radio "Winchester" with 8 kills, before the F-14 ever knew another aircraft was in the area. The Raptor has first look capability over any aircraft in the inventory. After taking its shot, it can turn away and supercruise out of the "Highway to the Danger Zone" (thought I'd throw that in for the Tomcat lovers). Razz

The 22 can out-climb, out-turn, out-accelerate, and out-run the Eagle, which in turn can do all of these better than the Tomcat. The 22 has the lowest RCS of any fighter in the world. The Tomcat has the largest. If the Tomcat tried to turn with a 22, he'd over-G the plane. Any questions?

Bottom line: The F-14 looked really amazing in "Top Gun" and had it not been for that movie, hardly anyone would consider it an "all time great". Its real USN combat record matched Maverick's kill total in the final dogfight scene, and was turned into a bomb truck later in its career. The Tomcat was a pretty good plane, but hardly one of the "all time greats". Compared to the Raptor it is a relic.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

This shouldn't even be a question in the first place. The answer should be bloody obvious.

Quote:

After taking its shot, it can turn away and supercruise out of the "Highway to the Danger Zone" (thought I'd throw that in for the Tomcat lovers).

That's absolutely correct TC. Although personally I wouldn't mind having a Raptor make a Tomkitty or two cry at WVR because it can't do what the Raptor can do. Can Maverick's head swivel 360 degrees? Fast? Very Happy

F-14 like F-18, beat the F-22 in one very important way: They fly off of an aircraft carrier... which makes them much more tactically useful in some ways of fighting. Cool

Can't beat the F-14 in the airplane model shop department. Which would you rather spend time with sniffing glue?.... a collection of different F-14s from various historic squadrons ( in the days when they could paint them like circus wagons before the grey era ) or a collection of grey raptors? Laughing

The guy posted some stuff on the other forum again, here's the link:

http://acecombat.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=9175&st=195&#entry295783

This is very funny. Very Happy

Shev

Just remind that guy that the 6.5g limit is mainly due to the pivot pins for the "swing wings" on his precious turkey. The F-111 had the same problems. When there is that much stress from the airfoils loading and unloading going through that pin, they tend to warp, bend, break, etc... If you over-G an f-14 too much, you run the risk of your wing(s) literally falling off (granted, that would take some serious neglecton the part of the ground crew)... Last time I checked, you are pretty much dog sh*t in any fight, be it WVR or BVR or BFM, without any wings.

Plus, he drops a lot of civilian names, and even says he "knows" a rear admiral, but we are also talking about a F*cking computer game pilot here. Last time I checked, the guys who are really Sierra Hotel and know their sh*t got their wings the old fashioned way, by earning a slot at UPT (be it Navy or AF or ANG), graduating top of their class and moved on to fighters. They don't double click an icon from a $50 GAME they bought from Best Buy to get started up; they brief, suit up, strap a $50,000,000 AIRPLANE that the tax payers bought on their back and fly into the heavens, and get paid to do it.

This guy is an insult to guys like Gums who have been there, Stbygn and Cylon who are there and Trailmix who is on his way there.

I wish we could set this up. We will give this guy a turkey that has been sent to AMARC, We'll let him over-g it and use anything that can be put on the airframe and pit him against a Raptor from the 1FW here at Langley. But we use real weapons. We'll see who the smoking hole is soon enough.

Please, copy this and let him see it. `

Ok, I posted it.

A few of the guys from this forum who signed up over there are giving some good points on the subject to. For those of you who haven't, you might want to just look over there every now ant then to see what's new on the topic.

Bah, was gonna say I left a reply on the other forum but apparantly I cant...

Anyways,.... Ill leave it to all you to pound it into this kids brain he is wrong...

-Aaron

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

F-22 vs. F-14? Would there be any competition?