Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

sferrin wrote:

One of the easiest (though not cheapest probably) would be to add the side arrays for the radar. The F/A-22 was suppose to have THREE radar arrays and the spots are still there for them. The are essentially empty compartments to the rear of the radome on the lower side. I've looked at the high res photos on the net and even knowing where to look you can't see where they'd go as the gaps in the skin are smoothed over under the paint. Jay Miller's new book on the Raptor has some great shots though so you can see exactly where they'll go. They're not as big as the APG-77's array (obviously) which brings up an interesting question. Will there be seperate radars ie THREE APG-77s or will it just seem to the existing APG-77 that it got a bigger array?

Supposedly the spots still exit for the IRST also but I don't have a clue where those would be. As for weapons we could probably speculate all day. There's the UCAV I mentioned in another thread but that's the only one I'm aware of that is Raptor specific.

Well I would think the software folks at LM would make it seem to the pilot that he is using one big radar with like a 270 degree FOV, even though the hardware is actually 3 different radars. Ideally the pilot would only have to worry about looking at the information his radar is providing him, not worrying about which radar to use. Don't know fo sure, but that's my 2 cents.

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This is what integration is about. The F-35 takes this to the next level where target information can be from radar, RwR, EOTS, EODAS, or off-board sensors but the source is not displayed to the pilot.

I wouldn't be surprised if the cheek array compartments get populated by a non-radar sensor.

wrightwing wrote:

Viperalltheway wrote:

The F-22 should avoid close in dogfights like the plague. It is such a high value asset that it should take the minimum of risks of being detected.

Imo a worthy upgrade would be MICA-IRs in the side bays. They should fit and they have about twice the range of the AIM-9X block 2. They have a multi target capability and they would be perfect for a second salvo. They would also be very good at close range with the thrust vectoring of the F-22. The 9X's 90 deg off boresight capability is useless on the F-22 because of the lack of HMS, the 60deg capability of the MICA is more than enough.

Just 2 points-

The -9X has a greater than 90 deg off boresite capability(i.e. over the shoulder).

The lack of HMS won't be an issue for the F-22, as it's MLDs(which are being upgraded to DAS-like capabilities vs. aircraft targets) will be able to cue the HOBs shots.

The range on the -9X is classified though Ive seen references to ranges up to 20 miles. I don't think its just a WVR system anymore. As for the MICA, that's a very pricey missile.

popcorn wrote:

I don't think its just a WVR system anymore.

For the F-22, it won't be.

Officially/unofficially it's coined a NBVR missile. With the 9Xs on the F-22 though (especially at certain launch parameters), it'll essentially be like giving it two more BVR missiles made possible by the increased range of the 9X combined with the F-22's performance.

I foresee with the addition of the 9X, it will drastically change the way Raptor guys approach BFM, WILL make the F-22 far more deadlier and promote new and innovative tactics in the BFM and NBVR arena (not that they're not already doing that now...).

madrat wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if the cheek array compartments get populated by a non-radar sensor.

Um, what else? Side looking IR for some reason? Magic 8-ball? Radar seems like the obvious choice.

As for MICA, it's French. If you think there's a realistic chance we're going to buy an air to air missile from the French, well... there's not. At all.

Scorpion1alpha wrote:

popcorn wrote:

I don't think its just a WVR system anymore.

For the F-22, it won't be.

Officially/unofficially it's coined a NBVR missile. With the 9Xs on the F-22 though (especially at certain launch parameters), it'll essentially be like giving it two more BVR missiles made possible by the increased range of the 9X combined with the F-22's performance.

I foresee with the addition of the 9X, it will drastically change the way Raptor guys approach BFM, WILL make the F-22 far more deadlier and promote new and innovative tactics in the BFM and NBVR arena (not that they're not already doing that now...).

The addition of a datalink on the -9X block II certainly implies effective ranges beyond WVR in conjunction with LOAL capability. The data link is described as "one-way, forward quarter" which confiuses me a bit..can anyone clarify?

Forum Veteran Joined: Apr 16, 2005 - 03:16 PM Posts: 800

The mica will probably never be purchased by the USAF even thought it would be almost perfect for the F-22. But maybe a shortened JDRADM would be possible. That variant would be lighter and could also be mounted on the wingtips of the SH.

It would make sense to arm the SH with the JDRADM because the last SHs will be put into service in 2016 and the F-18E is good apparently for 9000 hours. The AMRAAM will not be sufficient in the long term, and the F-18 carries only 1 AMRAAM in a/g configuration when all the other hardpoints are taken for pods/tanks/bombs.

AIM-9X block II will not have true LOAL, that is it cannot target anything from off board data. The reason it is forward quarter is because it requires information from the radar to guide it out to the target. The block II is basically a catch up stage to the current ASRAAM, allowing the missile to be fired outside of WVR information. ASRAAM can be wholly cued by JHMCS, giving it some edge. The true LOAL capability will truly allow engaging rear aspect targets, utilize off board information, use an internal INS, and use two-way data links. I believe this 360º capability is tentatively destined for testing by 2015 and perhaps be introduced in a block III.

Where are you getting such bad information?

Radar is not needed to guide the Blk2 AIM-9x. Any sensor, whether native or off-board can que the Aim-9x Blk2 to a target.

The AIM-9x Blk2 has:
Lofting mode
LOAL mode
GPS based INS
3rd party targeting (ie off-board targeting)
Data Link

Blk2.1 (P3I upgrade scheduled for 2018) gets a new fuze & CPU (so far)

madrat wrote:

AIM-9X block II will not have true LOAL, that is it cannot target anything from off board data. The reason it is forward quarter is because it requires information from the radar to guide it out to the target. The block II is basically a catch up stage to the current ASRAAM, allowing the missile to be fired outside of WVR information. ASRAAM can be wholly cued by JHMCS, giving it some edge. The true LOAL capability will truly allow engaging rear aspect targets, utilize off board information, use an internal INS, and use two-way data links. I believe this 360º capability is tentatively destined for testing by 2015 and perhaps be introduced in a block III.

The current AIM-9X can be wholly cued by JHMCS too. Block II will have LOAL.

Actually, I just wanted to be clarified on the "forward quarter" feature of the datalink. Shouldn't it be "rearward quarter" if its going to be receiving comms?

JHCMS cues the seeker, not the missile's flight path. High off-bore sight targeting using JHCMS is available with the Block I, the ASRAAM is supposed to be able to see with a wider aspect.

I'm using the publicly available information out there right now. If you know something that hasn't been released then you shouldn't be publicly stating it in this forum. It has not been officially stated that Block II incorporates the INS system it needs for true LOAL. The 'one-way, forward quarter' data link is dependent on the shooter's radar cuing to get the missile within its terminal homing zone. Software steers the activity of the system using best available information, but the software is handicapped by only having information from the radar available to guide it at this time. The radar has to track the position of the missile all the way to terminal homing, too. Without being able to track the missile your system has to guess where it is at. If you lose radar track on the target or the -9X before successful terminal homing then its not a free bird, but it is a blind shot at the best guess on where the missile and/or target will be. Third party targeting is something to be added in the future, but it wasn't a block II goal. The future revisions will likely be able to communicate two-way and the missile will likely have an internal INS to give it self-aware positional information, allowing it much more flexibility in attacking a target. The future missile might just be smart enough to attack on vectors well away from its launch point.

You need to get better acquainted with Google.

From a 2008 PDF

Public enough?

Not only does it have an INS, but it is based on GPS which allows for a more accurate engagement.

As far as needing radar, for the current F-22s: most of the time. Not only do they have radar, but it has been publicly stated that the ALR-94 can be used to cue a missile shot. Future F-22s are likely to get an update to the MLD which will also give it the same A2A tracking ability as the F-35's EODAS.

Speaking of which, on the F-35 ANY sensor that provides a target track can be used to guide the Blk2 to it's target. This includes, but is not limited to, APG-81, RwR, EOTS, EODAS, and off-board sensors.

As to your point of loosing track before terminal seeker lock, this applies to ANY LOAL missile (even the ASRAAM), not just the Aim-9x Blk2.

You really need to do more research.

The Aim-9x has already demonstrated a GPS LOAL engagement using off-board sensors.

Quote:

The UAV's position was provided to the telemetered AIM-9X using an off-board sensor, Raytheon says. The missile launched from a LAU-7A/D launcher mounted on a USMC Humvee, and guided to "within lethal range" of the target.

From this 2007 doc (page 18 ):

Quote:

The Block II capability enhancements planned are an advanced fuze, improved IRCCM, WEZ shaping & LOAL via 3rd party cueing, and trajectory shaping after launch.

Here is a Navy Doc that goes into good detail about the 9x and it's Blk2 upgrade.

http://www.dote.osd.mil/pub/reports/FY2 ... 9aim9x.pdf

Okay, you got me. Your first exhibit does NOT specify AIM-9X block II having an INS, it merely states it has a GPS. A GPS is not the INS necessary for a true hardware LOAL. And notice how '3rd party Targeting' lays outside the Block II key features? It does not specify what 'AIM-9X Tomorrow' version, merely its a point to the program's future potential. You have to be careful with marketing types, they tend to do this sort of truth stretching.

Second, your exhibit citing a 'Humvee-mounted launcher using an off-board sensor' does not mean its using '3rd party Targeting'. The Humvee doesn't have a radar last time I checked so of course it has to get its command link elsewhere. The software-based data link isn't one dimensional, it does whatever its programmed to do. Again, marketing stretches the truth and you have to take what is stated with a grain of salt.

And your last document seemed pretty much the same muddy picture. It doesn't support the notion you said it did.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

F/A-22 Raptor Future Upgrades