Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

boff180 wrote:

It was all a question of logistics and costs in my eyes.

The current Indian weapon inventory is Russian and French. Infact, a few months ago they made a massive order for more French missiles.

Choosing the Typhoon would have meant the extra cost of purchasing a whole new set of weapons, such as Sidewinder or Amraam which bring with them American technology transfer issues. Indeed, Typhoon itself is subject to the US approving technology transfer for every export sale. All that costs money.

On the logisitics side, it would be a third seperate weapon inventory to make sure got re supplied to the right base on time at a time of war, more time and cost.

Rafale was simply cheaper and simpler for the Indians.

UAE is looking different though. After publically cancelling their Rafale order citing the cost was far too high, they are now in negotiations with Eurofighter. As they already operate the F16E, there are no technology issues with the states and their weapons are cleared for or can easily be cleared for the Typhoon.

Andy

Typhoon for India could easily have been supplied with a limited number of AIM-120s until replaced by Meteor (which is also to be used by Rafale). Instead of AIM-9X, it could have been supplied with ASRAAM or IRIS-T, both of which are already operational on the Typhoon.

I think they were pretty much above board about it: Rafale was about $5 million apiece cheaper.

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Andy[/quote]
Typhoon for India could easily have been supplied with a limited number of AIM-120s until replaced by Meteor (which is also to be used by Rafale). Instead of AIM-9X, it could have been supplied with ASRAAM or IRIS-T, both of which are already operational on the Typhoon.

I think they were pretty much above board about it: Rafale was about $5 million apiece cheaper.[/quote]

Its pretty obvious that India wants to be independent from US hardware as far as their Air Force is concened.

Weapons also played a significant role in persuading India to opt for Rafale: not only is its weapons range mostly French-made, and thus not subject to a third-party embargo, but so are all of its sensors. Eurofighter, whose air-to-air missiles include the US-made AIM-120 Amraam and the German-led IRIS-T, and whose primary air-to-ground weapon is the US-made Paveway, was obviously at a competitive disadvantage in this respect

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... india.html

It seems that everytime eurofighter and rafale have competed, rafale had the upper hand (french link) :
http://www.latribune.fr/entreprises-fin ... fale-.html
Basically :
Holland 2002 - between F35, rafale and eurofighter, F35 received 6.97, rafale 6.95, eurofighter 5.83, F35 won
South Korea 2002 - Eurofighter eliminated in preselection, Rafale received best rank in technical evaluation but korea finally selected F15
Singapour 2005 - same result as previously
Brazil 2008 - Eurofighter eliminated during preselection, then evaluated f18, grippen and rafale, no progress made since then
Switzerland 2011 - between eurofighter, rafale, grippen, two evaluations, offensive and defensive air-air, rafale received 7.28/7.41, eurofighter 6.49/6.54, but switzerland selected grippen (5.68/5.62, lower than the F18, which was used as baseline at 6/6, but very cheap).
India 2012 - well, that's the subject of his post...

So I am not saying that the eurofighter is not a good aircraft, as it has been sold to many countries, but when both birds are competing, the eurofighter does not do well... Any reason according to you? there is probably something common in the need of those contracts that was at the advantage of the rafale?

Quote:

Its pretty obvious that India wants to be independent from US hardware as far as their Air Force is concened.

Weapons also played a significant role in persuading India to opt for Rafale: not only is its weapons range mostly French-made, and thus not subject to a third-party embargo, but so are all of its sensors. Eurofighter, whose air-to-air missiles include the US-made AIM-120 Amraam and the German-led IRIS-T, and whose primary air-to-ground weapon is the US-made Paveway, was obviously at a competitive disadvantage in this respect

Ridiculous. P-8I has a few US related pieces of hardware last i checked. As poster said above, a Euro Fighter could have IRIS-T + Meteor and of course be specially updated to integrate other munitions as well. As for A2G, Typhoon would arm Storm shadow + Brimstone (Non US hardware and highly modern). Respects.

But realistically speaking, has the $$$ to integrate Brimstone, Storm Shadow, etc already been spent for the Eurofighter? The only A2G ordnance I've ever seen one mentioned with is the Paveway series LGB. Meanwhile, the Rafale can also claim Exocet, AASM, the Paveways, ASMP, Storm Shadow & Apache, has a viable path forward with regards to AESA, and also has an integrated reconnaissance pod in the form of the RECO NG. Add to that weapons commonality with the Mirage 2000 Upgrade program in th form of the MICA missile family, and it honestly always struck me as a slam dunk.

In all honesty, the aircraft are so similar that why would India pay (supposedly) 5 Mil more per jet, and then have to pay for upgrades to make it a real multirole platform. Unfortunately for EF, France has already eaten some of the costs of qualifying their product for multirole operations, notwithstanding the mooted engine upgrade developments that the UAE has expressed an interest in.

HV

I wonder if/how this will affect Brazil's competition, seeing as the FAB *does* operate a dozen M2000s.

Not sure how much commonality would matter as they are replacing the M2K's with this purchase, as weird as that sounds.

southernphantom wrote:

I wonder if/how this will affect Brazil's competition, seeing as the FAB *does* operate a dozen M2000s.

Brazilian President has already confirmed that it will be the Rafale ! the final decision has been delayed a year or so..It is also expected that French president Sarkozy will visit the UAE soon to sign the contract for 60 Rafales ..It seems the year 2012 will be the Rafale year ..

duplex wrote:

southernphantom wrote:

I wonder if/how this will affect Brazil's competition, seeing as the FAB *does* operate a dozen M2000s.

Brazilian President has already confirmed that it will be the Rafale ! the final decision has been delayed a year or so..It is also expected that French president Sarkozy will visit the UAE soon to sign the contract for 60 Rafales ..It seems the year 2012 will be the Rafale year ..

The Super Hornet also seemed to be favored, and a lot can change in the time until the final verdict.

southernphantom wrote:

duplex wrote:

southernphantom wrote:

I wonder if/how this will affect Brazil's competition, seeing as the FAB *does* operate a dozen M2000s.

Brazilian President has already confirmed that it will be the Rafale ! the final decision has been delayed a year or so..It is also expected that French president Sarkozy will visit the UAE soon to sign the contract for 60 Rafales ..It seems the year 2012 will be the Rafale year ..

The Super Hornet also seemed to be favored, and a lot can change in the time until the final verdict.

In the case of Brazil, the reason for the delay is that Rafale was not selected in the competition. Reportedly another entrant was the favorite of the military and the Treasury, but the Brazilian President announced that it didn't matter how the evaluations came out, he wanted the Rafale and that's it. Who knows, maybe there were some "private negotiations" going on?

RE: the UAE, they are having problems with the terms France is offering, a complaint heard in other competitions.

As far as the Super Hornet being favored, that'd be the first time...

The Gripen was the choice of the Brazilian military. And the president who wanted the Rafale is gone. Afaik the new one have not expressed a preference. Might still go either way.

[In the case of Brazil, the reason for the delay is that Rafale was not selected in the competition. Reportedly another entrant was the favorite of the military and the Treasury, but the Brazilian President announced that it didn't matter how the evaluations came out, he wanted the Rafale and that's it. Who knows, maybe there were some "private negotiations" going on?

As far as the Super Hornet being favored, that'd be the first time...[/quote]

I don't think so mate..Brazil seems to have chosen the Rafale ! just came across this link from Brazil ..And one statement is interesting why the SH had ZERO chance from the start.

http://www.aereo.jor.br/2012/02/09/cest-ca/

2-it is impossible to trust the promise of technology transfer from the U.S., subject to the mood of Congress and alternation of power.

Unfortunately there are still so many people still wondering why the SH was eliminated in India !

Why is anyone surprised by the winner??
1. The Typhoon was a none starter, its built by a 4 nation consortium, that is way too much of a political hot potato for India to chew on, it India ever went to war, all it would take is for one of the 4 to block sales or spares, goodbye capability.
2. Never going to be a US jet, Washington have took out sanctions against India in the past, and when Pakistan wouldnt play ball, the US stopped F-16 deliveries and kept hold of the money lol.
3. The decision was political as it always is, France has always played ball with India and Dassault slashed the Raffys price, I dont even think Dassault will make any money out of the initial contract but follow on orders for equipment and support will make up for it.

Forum: Modern Military Aircraft

Dassault Rafale has won the Indian fighter contest !