Forum: General F-35 Forum

Instead of threatening to kill the program, why don't we just do it and then make an offer to revive it if LM meats certain requirements. We've killed other defense programs before and then reinstated them. Why not this one? Sending Boeing a formal RFP letter to see what they have as an alternative to the F-35 might send a strong message if they haven't done so already. Our military might is linked to our economic/industrial might. What good are F-35s when we run out of money to support/maintain them? It's like blowing all your money on a high end Italian sports car and then running out of money to send it to the shop every 5,000 miles.

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1st503rdsgt wrote:

popcorn wrote:

Anyone know what he proposes as an alternative if the F-35 is cancelled?

Ultralights and crossbows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSh5XyNjuKY LMAO

NO !!! You said that in an open forum!!! He's calling crossman for the crossbows as we speak!!!
Look at Obama's replacement for the Humvee with the new cuts in military spending.
Shocked

Keep'em (even the Ultralights) Flying! TSFG

wrightwing wrote:

handyman wrote:

Why are we manufacturing aircraft that we know have seriously structural problems and won't be able to fly 8000hrs without major structural repairs?

I think that might be an overstatement. There are structural issues that need to be addressed, in order to get the 8000+hr life, but it's a bit much to say that there are serious issues. Finding these issues is normal- it's just that the concurrence is a new thing. It's not that the overall design is somehow flawed.

The concurrence makes this a major issues. It would clearly be prudent and cheaper in the long term to stop production until a fix can be incorporated into new aircraft rolling off the line rather than doing an expensive fix later. Boeing is working on getting 32,000 HRS out of the F15E fleet and here we have a new aircraft in production that won't make it to 8000 in its current form. Something is very wrong here.
I don't think the program should be killed but the concurrence of development and production should stop immediately.

You need to balance the extra cost of concurrency with the cost of keeping legacy fleets flying (The recent SLEP of F-16s was projected at $9.4 million). Add this to the fact that concurrency allows you to get the fighters to IOC at least 5 years ahead of previous SDD & procurement plans.

Attack the messenger!

maus92 - Precisely. McCain wouldn't be calling the F-35 program a "Scandal and a Travesty" if it wasn't behind time schedule, facing a seemingly endless string of problems, and the only program running for the USAF.

discofishing, I'd like to see what Boeing offered as a stopgap replacement for the F-35, it would be interesting if nothing else. Or, the USAF can buy Gripens as a replacement for the entire national guard fleet. Nice plane, useful for interception roles, and cheap. In either case, this is a serious problem with the AF has to deal with.

maus92 wrote:

Attack the messenger!

McCain, as a senior member of the SASC, had a large part in mandating the parameters of this program, despite historical precedent to the contrary and knowing full well the risks. Now for him to play the part of the 'shocked bystander' is more than a bit hard to swallow. He's as responsible for this mess as anyone and he points the finger at everyone but himself.

I think McCain has a point, and I disagree that there are no alternatives to the F-35, at least the current plan for the F-35. There are always alternatives. And there better be because there isn't going to be three operational versions of the F-35. The country just can't afford it. Cancel the A and B, and go with the C for all branches and those allies that want to participate. Arguebly the finest (for its time) mutlirole fighter USAF fielded had beefed up landing gear and folding wings. Right now LM is trying to develpo three seperate and distinct fighters and they're failing. IOC for USAF in 2018! C'mon guys we can do better than that. Let LM concentrate on making one jet work at a time.

Really, failing? Besides cost missing its initial goal, how is it a failure? It is currently beating the test scehdule and nobody is making any credible claim that it is or will fail on a technical issue.

From first flight (for the A model) until scheduled IOC . . . 12 years. That's shameful. Compare that to first flight to IOC for the F-15 and F-16. Spare me the "but the technology is so much more advanced it makes it acceptable" speech. Just like the F-22, LM is milking this for all its worth. We just gave them 24 billion $ for upgrades and fixes for the Raptor. We're going down the same road with the JSF. The money we spend on the F-35 for similar issues will make the Raptor's cost seem like bargain basement. I agree we need the jet and the capabilities it brings to the table. My point is we need to set the program up for success. Three different jets is simply not affordable in today's fiscal realities.

Last edited by SpudmanWP on Dec 07, 2011 - 06:11 AM; edited 2 times in total

Joy, the false First Flight to IOC argument Wink

F-35A (AA-1) FF to IOC (2006-2018) 12 years (Not a production design)
F-35A (AF-1) FF to IOC (2009-2018) 9 years
F-35B (BF-1) FF to IOC (2008-2015) 7 years
F-35C (CF-1) FF to IOC (2010-2018) 8 years

Things to note on the F-35A IOC date of 2018 is that the original plan was to have IOC and IOT&E happen at the same time. Before you say that nobody does it that way, the French did just that with the Rafale. They actually deployed the Rafale BEFORE any IOT&E was even started. As it stands today, the SDD phase will end in the 2016 timeframe (mostly due to the massive increase in testflights mandated by the IOT&E people in the last re-baseline). If the F-35 continues to beat the testing schedule, I see that 2016 date coming down a year or two.

F-22 FF to IOC (1997-2005) 8 years
Eurofighter FF to IOC (1994-2005) 11 years
Rafale FF to IOC (1986-2000) 14 YEARS

Another thing to keep in mind about the Eurocard's IOC is that they were not true IOCs. They are still to this day (some 7+ and 12+ years after IOC) trying to achieve the full, multi-role capabilities that were promised during their design. The F-35A will go IOC will it's full complement of equipment, munitions to do the job, and ability to execute its full multi-role potential.

If the F-35 wanted to go IOC in the manner that the Eurocards did, they could declare IOC in 2012 with Blk2. But they will not. They want to make sure that they are fully capable of going to war in ANY capacity that they are needed.

retchief..... Your pretty ignorant. The F-15 was selected by the USAF in 1967 and didn't enter service till 1976. So that is at least a nine time span before the F-15 reached IOC. Lets not forget that the F-35 inolves three varients and a level of technological intergration that never before been attempted in a fighter. I also have to agree with you that three different jets do not make sense given todays fiscal reality that is why the government built three different varients of the same jet.

Look at the trend on all aircraft the time from first flight to IOC is getting longer and longer due to several things, including technology, and safety standards. I think the F-4 went supersonic on it's first flight, nobody would do that today.

Sufa Viper

stereospace wrote:

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:

If congress is so mad about the F-35 then they shouldn't have mandated that it be the only thing there is. They did this to themselves.

Thanks you for saying that! I could not agree more. The US Congress forced all the various and competing fighter programs together. The US Congress mandated this one size fits all aircraft. Were any of them aware of the TFX/F-111 program? Surely McCain himself would remember that. Did he speak up and speak out against this idea when it would have made a difference?

So once they forced everyone onto this road by writ of law, and now they've run into all the problems that were predicted right from the get-go, now it's everyone's fault but theirs. Maybe Senators Levin and McCain should get up and give a speech where they take full personal responsibility for foisting this fiasco onto the United States and every other country involved.

And then show the "moral courage" that ELP and the rest find so lacking in the world and resign for failing to adequately defend the US people through their poorly thought through choices.

That's what you got when you gave all your saving to that snake tongued salesman, LM. Its almost painful to watch the customers are getting mad and LM are struggling to deliver.

Its not too late to keep F-22 line open for like a hundred more raptors, and cut back F-35 program substantially. The A version should be canceled, the B should be only for international market, keep the C.

In the end, you wouldn't lose air superiority, while being able to save a lot of cash, and hopefully get a earlier IOC as well.

Forum: General F-35 Forum

JSF a "'Scandal And A Tragedy" ~ Sen John McCain