Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

So take anything Sukhoi says on their brochure, half that, then factor in the best case scenario with their best airshow pilot and you have a more accurate picture of what their aircraft can actually do. That's my cynicism coming through so don't jump on me too hard, but I think you get the picture. What mother Russia SAYS about their tech doesn't carry that much weight with me. The only way we're going to really get a good answer is by fighting the thing. My guess is that T-50 will not be able to see the Raptor any better than an advanced Flanker or anything else out there. Lack of attention to stealth will not get it to the merge which would be it's only chance in the first place. Raptor sees it and destroys T-50 BVR with an AMRAAM just like anything else out there. It will just be a much more expensive collection of flaming debris. T-50 has A LOT to prove to convince me otherwise. And how are we going to find that out in a, "friendly," (because they're our friends, right?!?) manner? Invite them to Red Flag?!? Laughing

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That was my point. The Russians claim it is better than the Raptor at WVR but I said we still don't know anything because we can't believe them (or Kopp).
The thing is that the T-50 makes use of all of these radar systems like the leading edge L-Band radars and a tail radar. Really, the reason why the F-22 and F-35 have one active radar device only is because they don't want to maximize their probability of being detected by an enemy with a decent EWS. Weren't the SA-2 Guidelines using L-Band search radar with C-band engagment radar? If so L-Band isn't new. The F-22 or F-35 will detect the T-50 with all of its radars beaming EM emissions everywhere and will pop an AMRAAM using data from the ALR-94 RWR or ASQ-239 EW suite to blow it out of the sky.

tacf-x wrote:

That was my point. The Russians claim it is better than the Raptor at WVR but I said we still don't know anything because we can't believe them (or Kopp).
The thing is that the T-50 makes use of all of these radar systems like the leading edge L-Band radars and a tail radar. Really, the reason why the F-22 and F-35 have one active radar device only is because they don't want to maximize their probability of being detected by an enemy with a decent EWS. Weren't the SA-2 Guidelines using L-Band search radar with C-band engagment radar? If so L-Band isn't new. The F-22 or F-35 will detect the T-50 with all of its radars beaming EM emissions everywhere and will pop an AMRAAM using data from the ALR-94 RWR or ASQ-239 EW suite to blow it out of the sky.

Agreed. Nicely put!

Aside from physical size (and its potential positive impact on payload), the T-50 seems to me like a Russian attempt to kinematically copy the Raptor, but without much in the way of the F'22's superior LO qualities and avionics.

tacf-x wrote:

That was my point. The Russians claim it is better than the Raptor at WVR but I said we still don't know anything because we can't believe them (or Kopp).
The thing is that the T-50 makes use of all of these radar systems like the leading edge L-Band radars and a tail radar. Really, the reason why the F-22 and F-35 have one active radar device only is because they don't want to maximize their probability of being detected by an enemy with a decent EWS. Weren't the SA-2 Guidelines using L-Band search radar with C-band engagment radar? If so L-Band isn't new. The F-22 or F-35 will detect the T-50 with all of its radars beaming EM emissions everywhere and will pop an AMRAAM using data from the ALR-94 RWR or ASQ-239 EW suite to blow it out of the sky.

Russia is still thinking that "might makes right." Being so reliant upon active sensors, it should be possible enough to confound the radiated emissions, blind it, and kill it. F-35s can should be able to do that, and better than a Raptor given passive sensors crammed into its buldging airframe.

It may be that the Russia simply can't afford the expensive tooling needed to build (mass produce) stealth aircraft. They've always had sloppy tolerances... don't know anylonger if that's changed. Where we would be say +/- 8/1000 of an inch, they'd be nearrly 1/35th of an inch... 4x worse! Tolerances are king, when it comes to stealth.

tacf-x wrote:

About all we know about performance of the T-50 is that KNAAPO claims it sacrifices some stealth for superior kinematic performance to F-22. This is what the Russians said, so in actuality we know nothing about how the T-50 would fare in ACM against the Raptor.

I think a more accurate statement would be that it sacrifices some stealth to increase kinematic performance. There's absolutely zero evidence that it surpasses the Raptor's kinematic performance.

Let's go back in time and ask the same question about the F-15/16 vs. Mig-29/Su-27. This same topic was dicussed concerning this parring, except not on the internet. 25 years ago when reports of the Russian 4th gen AC coming on line and they looked sleek and powerful.

Russian AC makers make a good airframe and in the hands of well trianed pilot can and will give US AC a hard time. Some might say that Syrian and Iraqi pilot are not on par with US and Isreali pilots, shown in the lopsided battles in the middle east. Compitant Yugoslavian pilots did no better and luck was not a even a factor, against the overwhelmingly superior NATO AC. Time has proved, which AC are superior.

1. China and India have reduced or eliminated Russian purchases
2. Western allies don't buy Russian unless built under liscence and with western components

The T-50 and J-20 are stealthy AC, but what is the standard for stealth. Angled surfaces and internal weapons bays help in stealth but are not the whole answer to the puzzle of stealth. Euro AC claim supercruise but lack payload, internal weapons will help you supercruise with armament as we see with the T-50 & J-20, but it is the engines that complete the package. To complicate things further the USAF may call SC, 1.5 mach.

Russia and China may have new airframes and from an enthuseist is cool, but they both have a lot to prove............

Considering that I have been told by AF personnel at Edwards that an F-22 on the ramp with AN/APG-77 turned off was able to track a 747 landing some 75nm (138 km) away landing at LAX, I would say nothing that relies on active emissions will ever get fist look at a raptor. And arguing that a 747 isn't a fighter jest makes no difference. The F-22s radar was OFF so RCS of the aircraft is irrelevant. A 747 doesn't exactly carry a high powered multi band radar system to try and track stealth fighters. F-22 changed the game. It is now an aerial version of submarine warfare. absolute silence is key.

sprstdlyscottsmn wrote:

Considering that I have been told by AF personnel at Edwards that an F-22 on the ramp with AN/APG-77 turned off was able to track a 747 landing some 75nm (138 km) away landing at LAX, I would say nothing that relies on active emissions will ever get fist look at a raptor. And arguing that a 747 isn't a fighter jest makes no difference. The F-22s radar was OFF so RCS of the aircraft is irrelevant. A 747 doesn't exactly carry a high powered multi band radar system to try and track stealth fighters. F-22 changed the game. It is now an aerial version of submarine warfare. absolute silence is key.

How freakin' cool is that?!?!? Very Happy

Very cool. The Alr-94 could just track the T-50 from its full frontal barrage of Radar emissions and launch an AMRAAM at it. Heck, the APG-77 could be set in passive detection mode where it behaves like a radar warning receiver itself. In that mode the APG-77 can detect radar emissions from 250 nm out which will be ample time for the Raptors to vector themselves into position and take out the T-50s from various unpredictable vectors. All the T-50's will hear are their radar warning receivers going off and then a bang! They're dead.

Great adecdotal evidence like:

1. The F-22's kill ratio in simulated combat
2. Reports of 1.8 mach supercruise
3. The ability to use legacy AC to coordinate attacks w/o entering combat itself
4. Has the option to engage and disengage at will
5. Passive detecting of at least 75nm
6. Radar range of 250 miles
7. ?????????????

Is there more, add to the list

pushoksti wrote:

airmaster11 wrote:

I did a bit of homework and i found out that the F-22 and the T-50 are almost neck to neck in a dogfight!!!!!!!!

No you didn't. You pulled more BS out of your a$$.

My thoughts exactly.

Let's wait and see. The T-50 is still a prototype and the F-22 is a proven aircraft currently in service.

The T-50 according is more agile, Faster and has a better service ceiling. It is also cheaper has a better range. But it is still a Prototype.

airmaster11 wrote:

The T-50 according is more agile, Faster and has a better service ceiling. It is also cheaper has a better range. But it is still a Prototype.

Stop posting.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Can F-22A defeat the russian T-50