Forum: F-35 versus XYZ

bigbird2 wrote:

F-35 will be juicy S-300 - S-400 target, before the landing gear fully retracted after take off. It's a token player in this contest.

Well, if the S300/400 battery is parked at the end of the runway, you may have a point. Rolling Eyes

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bigbird2 wrote:

F-35 will be juicy S-300 - S-400 target, before the landing gear fully retracted after take off. It's a token player in this contest.

How's that?- You have heard of the radar horizon right, and with the terrain in Korea, there's no way a N. Korean radar is going to spot an F-35 upon take off. Additionally, even assuming Korea had a flat desert topography, it has no airbases close enough to N. Korean IADS for them to detect an F-35.

a war in korean peninsula will mean all China, russia radar asset immediately turning on. South Korea is not Iraq, afghanistan or Yemen. The minute there is air war, each square inch will be bathed with all sort of radar imaginable from all direction. Including china's early warning aircraft floating in all border airspace, high altitude UAV, Russian sat, coastal radar and naval facilities, etc.

These are not something that can be shut down without everything turning into global thermonuclear war within the hour. (In that case, who needs jet fighters. )

As US economy and influence dwindle in Asia, South Korea will have to fight alone for all intents and purposes. There won't be aircraft carriers or supply line coming into Korea when a conflict is reaching total air war where one need "VLO".

F-35 is unsuitable expensive dud. There are more J-10 and old mig in the air air than missiles F-35 can carry.

Last edited by 1st503rdsgt on Jul 30, 2011 - 12:23 AM; edited 1 time in total

Stop feeding the Chinese troll that's been getting all his info off of APA.

Trolls are easy to identify by their simplistic points of view [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YF7fLmIS ... ideo_title ] and by their nationalist insults, meant to waste your time by goading you into a wordy, thought-out response when, in fact, they couldn't care less about what you or anyone else thinks.

bigbird2 wrote:

a war in korean peninsula will mean all China, russia radar asset immediately turning on. South Korea is not Iraq, afghanistan or Yemen. The minute there is air war, each square inch will be bathed with all sort of radar imaginable from all direction. Including china's early warning aircraft floating in all border airspace, high altitude UAV, Russian sat, coastal radar and naval facilities, etc.

These are not something that can be shut down without everything turning into global thermonuclear war within the hour. (In that case, who needs jet fighters. )

As US economy and influence dwindle in Asia, South Korea will have to fight alone for all intents and purposes. There won't be aircraft carriers or supply line coming into Korea when a conflict is reaching total air war where one need "VLO".

F-35 is unsuitable expensive dud. There are more J-10 and old mig in the air air than missiles F-35 can carry.

Your ridiculous opinion has been duly noted.

... I wasn't the one who spews all sort of hypothetical event about BVR, stealth and stuff in probable korean conflict.

KFX III is a fighter jet that will serve late 20's to 30. Even basic assumption such as how many heavy fighter china and Russia can have is going to be a wild guess. Their relationship to NK is certainly won't stay the same.

as for my ridiculous opinion. What say you about last few US-Korea aircraft carrier exercise? Is my basic guess in line with geopolitical trend?

The fact that Korea even entertain the idea of pak-fa for KFXIII should be very telling.

bigbird2 wrote:

... I wasn't the one who spews all sort of hypothetical event about BVR, stealth and stuff in probable korean conflict.

KFX III is a fighter jet that will serve late 20's to 30. Even basic assumption such as how many heavy fighter china and Russia can have is going to be a wild guess. Their relationship to NK is certainly won't stay the same.

as for my ridiculous opinion. What say you about last few US-Korea aircraft carrier exercise? Is my basic guess in line with geopolitical trend?

The fact that Korea even entertain the idea of pak-fa for KFXIII should be very telling.

N. Korea couldn't handle the S. Korean Air Force/USAF assets that are currently in place, much less a VLO threat. Again, with the terrain of the Korean peninsula, there's no way anybody's going to have radar coverage of every square inch. Radars do a very poor job seeing through hills/mountains/beyond the radar horizon. China and Russia would hardly rush to N. Korea's aid either. The radar coverage that does exist, would have a very difficult time detecting the F-35s, and any non-stealthy foe would have quite a challenge surviving an engagement. N. Korea doesn't currently have S-300/400s(and I'm not aware of any Russian plans to change that).

Hey, welcome to bigbird2... just a wild guess, are you 'JC'? Anyway, I appreciate many of your analyses and opinions you've made so far which add a broader spectrum of thinking and concepts into a discussion. I agree with some of your points and will disagree with other opinions.

As for the Pak-fa being such a shocking option for SK, it's not that earth-shaking really as the Su-35 was previously part of the last competition so it shouldn't be anything radical in change. Moreover, SK is always an open and global, multi-polar partner going forward and has already contracted many Russian military technical acquisitions as part of their asset portfolio since the end of the Cold war.

As far as SK being a fool not to select the Pak-fa as you laid out in your hypothetical contract, well, let's hold our horses on that particular opinion a year or so and let SK evaluate in greater depth and decide what is in her best military defense and strategic interests, requirements, technical assesments, Life cycle cost budget, etc. No doubt, all sides will naturally be lobbying, the US in no way has a monopoly there.

And as far as S-300/400 being a threat to any future SK jet, let's first off hope that by 2018 the peninsula is not such a heated zone of spaceship Earth and not as militarized on the scope where such strategic weapon system proliferation is a threat to regional stability and security.

With regards to te whold KFX-3 plan, I'm actually starting to question if this piece of the Tacair recapitalization model is actually premature, as well-intended as it is and shuoldn't be pushed back 6-8 yrs - allow even better calculated requirements and technologies being developed to be evaluated? If that's the case, then perhaps a mid-term stopgap KFX-2.5 supplement could be studied? imho. Respects-

Heya Geogen,

I vaguely remember Su-35 offer. Wasn't the russian late? But qualitatively the two events are different. Su-35 won't change the balance of power and will give korea massive logistic headache for slightly less capable fighter compared to newer F-15.

But T-50 is a new plane. at the very least designed to be better than earlier sukhoi which is a plus against the bulk of China/north korea inventory. second, something seems to change after J-20 first flight. A true fifth gen fighter becomes urgent, specially if China has more new fighters in the work.

This also seems to echo Japan's decision to press ahead with atdx first flight in 2014.

If they wait longer, the gap will become too large. The requirement seems to cluster around F-22 capability, since that's pretty much near current engine technology anyway.

but again, in the end it's back to politics.

PAK-FA will be juicy S-300 - S-400 target, before the landing gear fully retracted after take off. It's a token player in this contest.

(Not feeding the troll, but simply wanted to point out the mistake in this chaps argument, afterall the PAK-FA is a less stealthy aircraft than the F-35)

yes it is somewhat an exaggeration, but I am pointing out the need for fighter to immediately position itself fast for a dogfight in a very limited airspace. In the event of big all out air war, south korea is the one at disadvantage position. All sea route closed, most likely be saturated by short range missiles and lost a lot of secondary if not several primary facilities too. And completely exposed by all radar facilities nearby.

North korea on the other hand has backing of unlimited radar and supply from russia and china.

FXIII plane will have to be a true high performance air superiority plane. Able to fight in massively outnumbered, bombed out facilities, only supported by medium fighters when available. It is not going to be a clean squadron v. another squadron. it will be massive all out gun blazing, before turning into painful endurance and close range war of attrition.

that's worst case scenario, but FXIII primary job is sheer air power strength deterrence. only F-15 currently can provide that without having ridiculous china size fighters.

wrightwing wrote:

N. Korea couldn't handle the S. Korean Air Force/USAF assets that are currently in place, much less a VLO threat.

unfortunately, we are not talking about current situation, but late '20 and '30, when these fighters suppose to be at peak service. Even now China has reasonably useful early warning planes. Good enough to detect F-35 from their border or international air. (it's less than 200nm)

>> Again, with the terrain of the Korean peninsula, there's no way anybody's going to have radar coverage of every square inch.

high altitude UAV. south korea land mass is small.

>>> China and Russia would hardly rush to N. Korea's aid either.

then we must lived in different universe, considering Cheonan sinking, UN drama, and various carrier related exercises. The soft power application was as complex as during cold war.

>>> The radar coverage that does exist, would have a very difficult time detecting the F-35s, and any non-stealthy foe would have quite a challenge surviving an engagement. N. Korea doesn't currently have S-300/400s(and I'm not aware of any Russian plans to change that).

by late 20's, United States would be lucky having enough money paying F-35 spare parts and maintain basic readiness. Long range power projection in full scale air war is out of the question. F-35 is irrelevant in large pacific war. Too little too late. Expensive dud.

Its the muppet show..............thanks bigbird for your wonderfully misinformed opinions....without any attempt to backup anything you say.......because you cant.

And now you are talking about the future as if you have a magic crystal ball - fabulous

If you have some valid reasons why you actually think the F-35 is such a dud other than it doesnt look good - then please tell all.....but lets face it you dont do you...........

Next!

flighthawk wrote:

If you have some valid reasons why you actually think the F-35 is such a dud other than it doesnt look good - then please tell all.....but lets face it you dont do you...........

Mr. Snuffleupagus told him so. Laughing

flighthawk wrote:

Its the muppet show..............thanks bigbird for your wonderfully misinformed opinions....without any attempt to backup anything you say.......because you cant.

And now you are talking about the future as if you have a magic crystal ball - fabulous

If you have some valid reasons why you actually think the F-35 is such a dud other than it doesnt look good - then please tell all.....but lets face it you dont do you...........

Next!

here is a quickie scenario.

Suppose a F-35 take off from an airstrip outside Seoul. You don't know when, but can guess within 10-20 hrs range. So put an observer to further pint point. Bring it up within minutes. Have early warning radar turned on within second an F-35 hit a taxi way. long range SAM ready to fire.

Now suppose you have that landing gear of yours dangling 15-20 second after take off. A full load slow fighter that really isn't high G climber? That got to worth another 5-10 seconds.

Do you think an Awacs flying 200 miles away won't see such shiny object for 20-30 seconds? What about a UAV or a off coast ship.

In the mean time, a surface to air missile is already half way guided by the awacs and already within its Infra rage sensor.. (the northern border is within artillery range btw. and the west sea are open dispute)

what you gonna do? start covering a huge main airbase with decoys during massive high take off rate? or fly everything from southern most air strip? ... It's even worst. flat land and russian navy. there goes element of surprise eh?

You can try flying terrain hugging mode from the south , but you won't have meaningful fuel left by the time you reach combat zone. ... toast either way facing a flanker at optimum load. F-35 doesnt' pass the giggle test in reasonable korea air war situation. I'll take remote controlled mig-15 + better cannon and I will still win the war against F-35.

I have to watch my muppet show now, so much more challenging than this argument. k'thanxbye.

Forum: F-35 versus XYZ

F-35 & T-50 PAK-FA Compete S. Korea + F-15E + Typhoon