Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Siesta you cannot compare the wear and tear of a combat mission over hostile airspace where shots will be fired to benign US airspace with no SAM threat and the targets are unarmed airliners and light private aircraft. There is also a difference between ejecting over Los Angeles and Bengazi. Finally, protecting US territory from terror attacks on things like nuclear power plants, political head quarters or the Pentagon is actually vital strategic interest. Libya is not by any means. Think about it...

Disco, for the same reasons and also including the fact that Army SF units are stretched extremely thin due to actual wars deploying them to Libya is as bad if not worse than sending F-22s.

Guys let Libya be. Besides, there are much more creative ways to deal with this.

-DA

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DarthAmerica wrote:

Siesta you cannot compare the wear and tear of a combat mission over hostile airspace where shots will be fired to benign US airspace with no SAM threat and the targets are unarmed airliners and light private aircraft. There is also a difference between ejecting over Los Angeles and Bengazi. Finally, protecting US territory from terror attacks on things like nuclear power plants, political head quarters or the Pentagon is actually vital strategic interest. Libya is not by any means. Think about it...

Disco, for the same reasons and also including the fact that Army SF units are stretched extremely thin due to actual wars deploying them to Libya is as bad if not worse than sending F-22s.

Guys let Libya be. Besides, there are much more creative ways to deal with this.

-DA

Actually I can compare - I flew and worked Operation Southern Watch and Northern Watch No fly Zones in Iraq. And for a few years there US Aircraft were shot at everyday. The F-15Cs did not suffer the wear and tear that people think they would have. Flying CAPS during OSW and ONW actually erroded the air to air skills of pilots because air to air skills are perishable. Think about this - when F-22s fly at their bases or exercises they fly specific mission profiles everyday like ACT (Air Combat Tactics) or DACT (Dissimilar Air Combat Tactics) which bring more G force manuevering on an aircraft. When flying a combat air patrol your job is as one pilot termed it burning holes in the sky. Your not going to see a MiG everday or be shot at by a SAM every day.

I pretty much know how vital ONE is...

discofishing wrote:

Quote:

How will mere patrolling halt fires from the ground and sea? Just how are these casual patrols going to stop tanks and other heavy weaponry? We have lost our chance to effectively and resoundingly oust that camel looking ******* once and for all.

That's why US Special Forces is on the ground in Libya. They've been there a while. Libya is a text book Green Beret mission. If our politicians back them 100%, then that will allow the operators to get results.

I concur. Its the Afghan model with special forces calling in precision air power as needed. I'd suggest the opposition form some sort of interim government, garner as much international recognition as possible and use this legitimacy to solicit whatever foreign military assistance they can.

Give it a couple of days and it'll all be over and done with anyway as Gaddafi has pretty much won already.

Leaders of various dictatorships across the world will be celebrating as they now know they can get away with pretty much anything because the so called 'international community' is a powerless joke.

Siesta,

No you can't compare. It's not just the ACM, it's the duration and result. Neither OSW or ONW were effective or efficient uses of American military power. The achieved a brief political result but failed in terms of providing cover for those attempting to removing Saddam and the Kurds. What was to be a temporary operation mission creeped into a 20 year war that required the commitment of hundreds of thousands of ground forces. I know because I fought it on the ground. The no fly zones were a waste and ineffective then and it is just as foolish an idea now. Even more so if a limited asset like F-22s are squandered there.

-DA

DarthAmerica wrote:

Siesta,

No you can't compare. It's not just the ACM, it's the duration and result. Neither OSW or ONW were effective or efficient uses of American military power. The achieved a brief political result but failed in terms of providing cover for those attempting to removing Saddam and the Kurds. What was to be a temporary operation mission creeped into a 20 year war that required the commitment of hundreds of thousands of ground forces. I know because I fought it on the ground. The no fly zones were a waste and ineffective then and it is just as foolish an idea now. Even more so if a limited asset like F-22s are squandered there.

-DA

I guess we agree to disagree - because as an aircrew member and working at US CENTCOM I saw it much differently. Airframe hours don't know how you would think air combat patrols vice flying ACM everyday and going to RED FLAG and other exercises as well as surging aircraft every quarter doesnt put more stress on an airframe.

Quote:

Disco, for the same reasons and also including the fact that Army SF units are stretched extremely thin due to actual wars deploying them to Libya is as bad if not worse than sending F-22s.

Guys let Libya be. Besides, there are much more creative ways to deal with this.

I'm all for staying out of Libya, but I don't have any say in the matter apart from a letter to my representatives. The reason ODAs are on the ground in Libya is because they are looking for that "more creative" way to deal with the situation in Libya. That's why you send these guys over there. I don't know if they're stretched too thin. They've added more national guard SF companies to various states like TX and Army SF has helped stand up MARSOC, which is 2 full battalions worth of operators that have been trained by Green Berets. Right now, America's inaction might be, in part, waiting for what kind of intel the teams in the field can gather. I hope they say it's not worth getting involved, honestly.

DA,

I understand that you like to instruct everyone you disagree with on how wrong they are in their particular opinion or assessment, but it is my pleasure to instruct you sir, that ONW was successful in terms of assisting Kurdish autonomous growth and development. I only wish you could take your absolutist tone down a notch.

With regards to F-22s participating in any potential, Libyan partial-NFZ... well, if such an order was in fact given to conduct partial no-fly operations, most likely yes; increment 3.1 upgraded F-22s would indeed be a strategic platform required to support the mission.

E.g., if conventional no-fly-zone-enforcing assets were challenged militarily and it was then necessary to engage actual air defenses or hostile bases accordingly, then an increment 3.1 F-22 would be the likely required resource to have prepared for the mission.

Regarding whether the US in particular should have any strategic-Human interests (we could all wish US had more raw human oriented interests rather than pure economic/geo-strategic ones) in Northern Africa, well that would be a discussion for another thread. Peace to Libya.

Siesta,

I'm going to "trust you" with regard to airframe hours on deployment to combat vs CONUS training because you have direct knowledge. I know that the reverse is true for the ground components. Perhaps we can discuss this further at another time.

GeoGen I'm not going to trust you with regard to ONW. Having physically been in the region and witnessing the result post ONW, I can say absolutely that it failed and with regard to your understanding of the reason was quite futile. Utter complete waste of time every time a sortie took off. That's just the reality and it needs to be accepted and learned from before we repeat the error in Libya and people like me have to go fix it the hard way.

Look folks, going into Libya for any reason is just plain a bad idea. I know it feels good and seems to be the right thing to do but it is not. Besides I think that we need to collectively know more about the people we would be providing air cover more. I think when some of you find out what Im hinting at you will be glad we stayed out of it.

-DA

DA,

Thanks for your response and I can reply that my brother-in-law was physically in the norther region too, and his accounts are much different from yours.

Please cease and desist your absolutist 'I'm right and your wrong' contributions here on these forums. Thank you sir and thank you for your service.

Geogen,

Piss off. If you disagree that's fine but don't presume to tell me how to post. Anyway, your source is either wrong or you misunderstood what you were told. Look, let me explain so you don't misunderstand me. Now think logical for a minute. What was the root cause of ONW? Would you disagree with me if I said Saddams decision to invade Kuwait and our subsequent removal of Iraqi forces? How did that effort end? Please answer.

-DA

Wow.

Quote:

Piss off. If you disagree that's fine but don't presume to tell me how to post. Anyway, your source is either wrong or you misunderstood what you were told. Look, let me explain so you don't misunderstand

As was said sir, please cease and desist your absolutist 'I'm right and your wrong' perspectives on these forums. I as well as others would much rather engage you with balanced and reasonable debates. Peace bro. Look forward to a fair discussion.

Geogen,

Please answer my question.

Thanks,
DA

DA,

The answer to your Question is simply yes, Kurds benefited from ONW. They became highly autonomous due in part to morale and freedom of development enforced via ONW. Whether that was for right or for wrong, that is another discussion. But with regards to your point that ONW did nothing, well sir, you missed the intel brief on that.

If we are relating operations Provide Comfort and Northern Watch to the Iraq Liberation Act that Clinton signed into law, then I'd have to say both operations failed. Even though it was signed in 1998, it was a goal of the US to rid Iraq of Saddam many years before the act was even considered; the act only formalized a policy. I do believe both operations provided a certain measure of protection for the Kurds, but overall, if these operations were truly successful, then why did we have Operation Iraqi Freedom. Why did I have to spend over two years on the ground over there? Air campaigns/operations can only do so much. We flew countless missions over Iraq after Desert Storm and it still didn't impart regime change. With regards to Libya, a no-fly zone will not get rid of Ghaddafi. We want regime change in Libya just like we wanted in Iraq. Yes? No? Things have to change on the ground. Just sprinkling a bunch of fighter jets on Libya to form instant no-fly zone isn't the answer. That's why Special Forces is on the ground trying to sort through the whole mess and figure out if we even have a reason to intervene. My guess is that we need to stay the hell out. I'm tired of having my brother's and sister's in harm's way. Let them spend Christmas and the 4th of July at home for once.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Raptors for the No-Fly Zone?