Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Sorry Scorpion but but I think some of us may have you lumped in with the rest of the posters of at Key. Frankly I do think you take as gospel the balony spouted about the Typhoon. When it comes to fan boys you do seem to fit the bill. I remember a year or two ago how you where spouting how superior the plane was.

F-16.net Sponsor

shingen wrote:

The 4chan of aviation, classic.

The F-117 shootdown has been cited probably 10,000 times there as proof that the US has wasted its time even bothering with LO. But then the Euros build Neuron so it becomes LO is only good for unmanned systems, then T-50 comes out so it changes from the EF level signature reduction is ideal to the T-50 level is ideal but that the F-22 and F-35 still go too far.

But this is no discussion line I follow, so what's the purpose of posting it at all? There are people who put forward such arguments and I see them as much as nonsense as you.
This is exactly what bothers me, I'm steadily confronted with the nonsense arguments from the idiots as if I personally would have made them.
The points I bring forward are simply ignored and people start to counter claims made somewhere else.

Quote:

On F-16 and SP the facts seem to shape the opinions and you have the Def Pros educating noobs although I have to say the F-15 max speed thread here should have been locked and deleted. You can't allow idiocy to drive massive threads.

The problem is that some people feel educated and prepared to take on discussions which are way above their level. They put forward some valid arguments which they previously absorbed from the better informed people, but can't present them correctly, rarely see limitations and exaggerate.

Quote:

The fact is that anyone banned here or at SP goes to the one place that has a hair trigger on banning any pro US poster and encourages any anti US people regardless of how dumb they are.

The moderation is quite lame over there, but it works in all directions. I haven't seen many US posters being banned there at all and all those I saw being banned deserved it, though there are certainly a couple more people which deserve to be banned.

Quote:

They make sure to ban anyone who hurts the feelings of their core group by pointing out things the rest of us call facts.

What is the core group there? You have Indians, Chinese, Russians, Americans, Europeans etc. People from all over the world with different focusses. How many people can you ask here about non-American aircraft? It's a great place to learn something about the F-16, F-22 or F-35 for example and the dedicated threads and dedication of its members to these aircraft is what I value as I'm here to keep my self updated about those US fighters. But this is not the place to learn something about non-American aircraft and I don't talk about this vs that discussions but useful information/data etc.

Thumper3181 wrote:

Sorry Scorpion but but I think some of us may have you lumped in with the rest of the posters of at Key. Frankly I do think you take as gospel the balony spouted about the Typhoon. When it comes to fan boys you do seem to fit the bill. I remember a year or two ago how you where spouting how superior the plane was.

Look I'm not talking about the Typhoon here in particular, but about non American aircraft in general. Is someone a fanboy because he claims something is superior, if he can back up his claims with facts and technical expertise/understanding?
By that measure everyone claiming the F-22 is superior to anything else must be a fanboy, just by the virtue of claiming it, whether they are correct or not.
I don't pretend to be all knowledgeable or that everything I claim must be definitely to 100% correct, no one knows everything and I'm just a human like everyone else here and humans tend to make errors. But I try my best to learn from my errors and further develop. If you follow my more recent posts I merely correcting gross misinformation or try to offer a different view, IF I think a view is incomplete by being to one sided or question things which are uncritically swallowed and spread as gospel truth, without wasting even a second to think about it and put it into the perspective.

I'm all for a reasoned, informed and balanced discussion and somewhat miss the long forgotten times where people with different focuses exchange information, rather then fighting the ultimate mine is better than yours pissing war.

"I'm all for a reasoned, informed and balanced discussion and somewhat miss the long forgotten times where people with different focuses exchange information, rather then fighting the ultimate mine is better than yours pissing war."

This type of discussion is not fostered by constant minimization of Typhoon issues and magnification of any US plane's issues.

Anyway, what's the real story as you see it why Rafale claimed 7-1 over EF? I only know what's publicly available and I don't trust anything that LM, Dassault or EADS says because the first two are proven liars and the third has every reason to lie. I'm assuming that any plane simulating Su-35 and Russian tactics comes off poorly against French pilots flying Rafale.

What I'd really like to see some time is F-22's simulating Su-35 and see them get "shot down". That would be epic to watch the forums then.

Quote:

What I'd really like to see some time is F-22's simulating Su-35 and see them get "shot down". That would be epic to watch the forums then.

Funny you should mention that...

F-22s have been simulating advanced Flanker types for some time now. Boring for other F-22 jocks...

Scorpion1alpha wrote:

Quote:

What I'd really like to see some time is F-22's simulating Su-35 and see them get "shot down". That would be epic to watch the forums then.

Funny you should mention that...

F-22s have been simulating advanced Flanker types for some time now. Boring for other F-22 jocks...

So let's say that they do it against EF or Rafale. You mods would be busy!

Yes we would!

shingen wrote:

This type of discussion is not fostered by constant minimization of Typhoon issues and magnification of any US plane's issues.

I usually fill up the position which is under represented and have been accused for being biased towards Euro-, US- and Russian hardware in various places. I have defended the F/A-18E/F and F-35 for example multiple times in places where there was an under representation of arguments for these aircraft. It's not necessary to do so here. The situation here is that people usually compare the pros for the US aircraft vs. the contras of the non American (Russian/European) aircraft. So I naturally produce a counter weight by outlining the contras for the US aircraft and pros for the non American aircraft. If people would keep such a balance in their statements there wouldn't be a need to do so, but that's rarely the case. I'm well acknowledging the Typhoons or any other aircrafts weaknesses, as well as strengths, if people would just ask instead of coming up with one sided claims only I would readily share my view about the Typhoons or other aircraft's weaknesses or strengths.

Quote:

Anyway, what's the real story as you see it why Rafale claimed 7-1 over EF?

Well the French CO Lt.Col. Grandclaudon himself relativized his own claims when asked in an interview. According him those results where achieved during the continuation phase prior ATLC where experienced Rafale jockeys were playing the bad guys and green spawns from the RAF had to fight them. The Rafales weren't actually simulating a threat aircraft, just generic threat missiles (AA-10C). Without more details it's impossible to accurately access the events however. There were other occasions where Rafales smashed Typhoons during exercises, but the same occurred the other way round. Anyway the Rafale isn't a slouch in A2A in contrast to what many believe, it has its weaknesses like any aircraft, but as an overall package it's quite capable and I personally wouldn't rate it as being way inferior to the Typhoon based on what I know about both aircraft.

Quote:

I only know what's publicly available and I don't trust anything that LM, Dassault or EADS says because the first two are proven liars and the third has every reason to lie. I'm assuming that any plane simulating Su-35 and Russian tactics comes off poorly against French pilots flying Rafale.

I don't think that anyone is actually simulating the Su-35 at all, but mostly older less capable versions which are more likely to be encountered in potential threat scenarios. Many of the exercise results aren't really representative due ROE limitations and mission planning. And sometimes single factors can decide between win and loose. An aircraft like the F-22 with a significant margin over anything else flying is more forgiving here.

Quote:

What I'd really like to see some time is F-22's simulating Su-35 and see them get "shot down". That would be epic to watch the forums then.

You already have that crap all over with regards to the few F-22 kills. Next to sheer fanboyism its much owed to the fact that the reports rarely clarify the conditions, so people start speculating and while speculating can be fun, it's usually just one sided, quickly evolves to a pissing contest.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... -f-22.html

Here's a better image:

Anyone care to translate it?

"Real fighter pilots eat quiche."

OL

edit: None of this OCR and google junk, the following link has what appears to be a fluent translation:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ost5016188

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

F-22's at Dubai