Forum: Air Power

How about we just keep some Block 25 Vipers from being 'full-scale target drones'?

Shrug

TEG

F-16.net Sponsor

I don't know, TEG... it looks like you'd have to run that idea past Gums first, eh!! Salute

I think F-16s do a good job with COIN missions. I like TEG's idea. If we can't save Block 25 birds, then perhaps apply the MLU to those F-16A ADF aircraft that were retired way before they needed to be.

Interesting concept. Probably would require some kind of display upgrade in the cockpit. I wonder if TEG could swap out the 220s and install new -229 EEP? PnP the next gen Litening ATP-SE pod with 2-way clickable data link to a ROVER block IV equipped team on the ground and it would seem to at least on paper turn into quite a capable and modern CAS/COIN/ISR truck. Back to square one, eh.

No budget too high?

The use of vipers for CAS/BAI has been tried, not successfully, as reported here:
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article18.html
fisk

Um, fisk... in all fairness, the hypothesized use of said vipers in that article was not found to be successful back in the 80s?

Maybe w/ new age wind corrected cb and LJDAMs, etc, mated on an upgraded block 25 hanging an ATP-SE Litening pod, could blow away all mid-80s perceptions and expectations of what a BAI/CAS F-16 could be? imo.

Here is the key point on the "failure":

Quote:

The F-16s from the 174th were deployed to the Persian Gulf during Desert Storm, but the project proved to be a miserable failure. Precision aiming was impossible for several reasons:

* The pylon mount isn't as steady as the A-10's rigid mounting;
* The F-16 flies much faster than an A-10, giving the pilots too little time approaching the target;
* Firing the gun shook the aircraft harshly and made it impossible to control;
* Essential CCIP (continuously computed impact point) software was unavailable.

Pilots ended up using the gun as an area effect weapon, spraying multiple targets with ammunition, producing an effect rather like a cluster bomb. It took only a couple of days of this before they gave up, unbolted the gun pods, and went back to dropping real cluster bombs - which did the job more effectively.

Basically, the gun couldn't cut it.

Even if tried today, the 30mm gun is just too big/violent and the pod/mount too generic.

This is where the podded 25mm from the F-35 shines. Just enough power to get the job done and a pod/mount combination built from scratch for the purpose.

If you look at the previous COIN platform from the 60's, the B-26K with its 8 .50 machine guns in the nose were pretty effective. Small wonder that the AX program went with the GAU-8 later on.

geogen wrote:

Um, fisk... in all fairness, the hypothesized use of said vipers in that article was not found to be successful back in the 80s?

Maybe w/ new age wind corrected cb and LJDAMs, etc, mated on an upgraded block 25 hanging an ATP-SE Litening pod, could blow away all mid-80s perceptions and expectations of what a BAI/CAS F-16 could be? imo.

No.
fisk

A-37 really doesn't fit that bill, must be something bigger Smile

SpudmanWP wrote:

Here is the key point on the "failure":

Basically, the gun couldn't cut it.

Even if tried today, the 30mm gun is just too big/violent and the pod/mount too generic.

This is where the podded 25mm from the F-35 shines. Just enough power to get the job done and a pod/mount combination built from scratch for the purpose.

Exactly right, Spud. I was at the gun butt when GD tested the 30MM pod in the early 80's. Awesome weapon but way too much gun to bolt onto a LWF product. Played havoc with flight controls too, I understand, from the vibrations.
fisk

Folks, with all due respect you don't need to hang a 30mm gun to be a credible CAS/COIN platform, regardless of how potent that particular capability might be. To base a next-gen COIN/CAS ship around a 30mm system is therefore irrelevant. As Spud has said, if 20mm is deemed not sufficient: there are 25mm guns, there are 27mm guns (my vote for an F-16MLU), there are specially developed centerline pods (which could be developed for an F-16 if you really needed it, no prob). Most of all, there are new tech weaps such as the laser guided rockets, LJDAM, wind corrected CBU, IIR and mmW guided rounds... and as remarked - low-tech computer assisted INS guided munitions. Try to think beyond a necessary 30mm gun starting point, going forward. imho.

Here's the original requirements from an article published shortly before this meandering, coulda, woulda, shoulda thread began.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-d ... ight.html:
"The US Air Force has issued a request for information to identify sources that can supply 100 new fighters to perform light attack and armed reconnaissance roles.

Air Combat Command released a request for information on July 27(2009) that calls for first aircraft deliveries to start in Fiscal 2012 and the first operational squadron to activate a year later.

The requirements call for
a two-seat turboprop capable of flying up to
30,000ft and equipped with
zero-altitude/zero-airspeed ejection seats,
full motion video camera,
data link,
infrared suppressor,
radar warning receiver and
armored cockpit. Weapons must include
a gun,
two 500-lb bombs,
2.75-inch rockets and
rail-launched munitions."

We can now start on our 2nd year by debating USAF's choices.
fisk

OK, we're definitely going around in circles now, lol... I was only disputing the notion which was implied above (making example of the discontinued mid-80s Viper CAS/BAI trials), and arguing along the lines of TEG's reapplied block25 SLEP/MLU suggestion... with the mention that a 30mm focus not be necessary accordingly.

And yes, this thread admittedly goes beyond the notional USAF LAAR concept which was initially debated and has extended into broader service-wide COIN/CAS discussions - for one thing since the original USAF LAAR requirement now seems unlikely. Shrug

Forum: Air Power

The USAF is seeking a COIN aircraft design