Forum: General F-35 Forum

slowman2 wrote:

When Japan does do naval aviation again, it will be a STOBAR carrier.

Unlikely. The best bet for both Japan and SK is to go with STOVL flat tops. Neither has any experience with STOBAR.

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slowman2 needs to justify this statement thanks: "...Its flight deck is not configured to take the heat of a jet blast...." Heavy Helos will use this flight deck.

sferrin wrote:

The best bet for both Japan and SK is to go with STOVL flat tops.

But why? Both got world-class shipbuilding industries, and building a Queen Elizabeth sized STOBAR carrier is a piece of cake for either(In fact, the QE class carriers were originally planned to be built in Korea for less than half the price). And both have a tendency of preferring big naval ships. Not to mention that STOBAR jets are far far cheaper to acquire and operate than something like F-35B.

Unlike Japan which possibly needs a fixed-wing carrier to patrol the East China Sea, Korea doesn't even need a carrier, because the Yellow Sea is a graveyard for carriers, be it American, Chinese, or Korean, with supersonic antiship missiles flying from both sides and dozens of subs in the water in wartime.

spazsinbad wrote:

slowman2 needs to justify this statement thanks: "...Its flight deck is not configured to take the heat of a jet blast...." Heavy Helos will use this flight deck.

Do a quick google search on "Hyuga flight deck jet blast" and you will get dozens of sources.

It is well-known that 16DDH and 22DDH series are really helicopter ASW carriers with no fixed wing support, in spite of their looks and sizes.

So you are saying that they are less durable than the USS Wasp?

'slowman2' as much as I would like to do your work for you I'm asking you to provide a specific reference rather than a general one (which takes one to many 'forum opinions' which don't mean much to me at all - credibility zero). I want the facts - nothing but the facts. Thanks.

Here is an 'easy find' but you claim to have your own:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19000t_class_destroyer Name: 22DDH class destroyer

"...Forecast International has reported that some of the design changes with respect to the previous class are intended to support the Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey and Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II aircraft,[2] although neither the MOD or the JMSDF have ever mentioned the possibility of introducing carrier-based aircraft...." And they call the 'carrier' a 'destroyer' also for 'deniability'. Very Happy

________________

22DDH rather a full-fledged helicopter carrier than a helicopter destroyer June 21, 2010

http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/597/

"Rumors that the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force’s third “aircraft carrying destroyer” would mark a major improvement in size and capability over the Hyuga class ships now entering service have been confirmed. The new 22DDH will be 248 meters long and 39 meters in beam, and displace more than 24,000 tons. This makes her almost 50 percent larger than the Hyuga class and places an unbearable semantic strain on the use of the term “destroyer” to describe these ships. To put the size of the ship into context, she is comparable with a World War II Essex-class fleet carrier....

...Japanese accounts suggest that one of the reasons for the drastic increase in size of the 22DDH design is a planned shift to the V-22 Osprey as the primary air group element for these ships. It is not clear whether these would be replacements for or supplemental to the SH-60Ks that equip the Hyuga class. These accounts also make it clear that the F-35B short takeoff and vertical landing variant of the Joint Strike Fighter is seen as a key system for these ships. Apparently, provision for the operation of UAVs is being included within the design...."

http://www.ships-net.co.jp/detl/201006/006.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... image6.jpg

spazsinbad wrote:

I want the facts - nothing but the facts. Thanks.

Does this look like a heat-resistant flight deck to you?

Firstly: is that a 22DDH? Sure build 'em fast if so. If it is not a 22DDH then what is it and how is it relevant to what has been said so far? Thanks.

spazsinbad wrote:

Firstly: is that a 22DDH? Sure build 'em fast if so. If it is not a 22DDH then what is it and how is it relevant to what has been said so far? Thanks.

Nothing that a few layers of Thermion shouldn't fix..

Yeah those old style 'in the flight deck elevators' are bad news. HMAS Melbourne had two of 'em. There was always dread that one would not be able to be raised, although seldom would the lift be lowered during flight ops - if ever. A4G pilots swore the slight lip on the aft side of the aft lift (when supposedly flush with the flight deck) caused unnecesssary hook skip bolters.

As I recall reading the 22DDH will have a lift on the STBD side aft of the island as seen in the first graphic above [not sure about any FWD flight deck lift - I'll have to check]. Probably a quite different flight deck also (with THERMION as rightly pointed out by 'popcorn') to handle V-22s, F-35Bs and those heavyweight ASW helos etc.

spazsinbad wrote:

Here is an 'easy find' but you claim to have your own:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19000t_class_destroyer Name: 22DDH class destroyer

"...Forecast International has reported that some of the design changes with respect to the previous class are intended to support the Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey and Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II aircraft,[2] although neither the MOD or the JMSDF have ever mentioned the possibility of introducing carrier-based aircraft...." And they call the 'carrier' a 'destroyer' also for 'deniability'. Very Happy

________________

22DDH rather a full-fledged helicopter carrier than a helicopter destroyer June 21, 2010

http://www.defpro.com/daily/details/597/

"Rumors that the Japan Maritime Self-Defense Force’s third “aircraft carrying destroyer” would mark a major improvement in size and capability over the Hyuga class ships now entering service have been confirmed. The new 22DDH will be 248 meters long and 39 meters in beam, and displace more than 24,000 tons. This makes her almost 50 percent larger than the Hyuga class and places an unbearable semantic strain on the use of the term “destroyer” to describe these ships. To put the size of the ship into context, she is comparable with a World War II Essex-class fleet carrier....

...Japanese accounts suggest that one of the reasons for the drastic increase in size of the 22DDH design is a planned shift to the V-22 Osprey as the primary air group element for these ships. It is not clear whether these would be replacements for or supplemental to the SH-60Ks that equip the Hyuga class. These accounts also make it clear that the F-35B short takeoff and vertical landing variant of the Joint Strike Fighter is seen as a key system for these ships. Apparently, provision for the operation of UAVs is being included within the design...."

http://www.ships-net.co.jp/detl/201006/006.jpg

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... image6.jpg

I hope Japan funds a SV-22. With the ability to do the jobs of both the Sea King and the S-2/3, the osprey could make an excellent sub hunter.

spazsinbad wrote:

Firstly: is that a 22DDH? Sure build 'em fast if so. If it is not a 22DDH then what is it and how is it relevant to what has been said so far? Thanks.

22DDH is structurally nothing more than a stretched 16DDH. It doesn't add additional engines to accommodate increased weight, etc.

And there is no reason to operate fixed wing aircraft on 22DDH. Japan needs four DDHs, which operate as fleet command ships in addition to operating ASW helicopters.

If a fixed wing carrier is needed, then one will be built for that specific purpose, either as a STOBAR or a CATOBAR carrier. No need to bother with a VSTOL aircraft.

'slowman2', any references for this statement please? "22DDH is structurally nothing more than a stretched 16DDH." Thanks.

For Japan to build an 'offensive' (also to the Japanese and their constitution) aircraft carrier then changes will need to be made to that constitution. Already being able to export 'weapons' (for F-35 deal) have been made to that previous restriction - so Japan is changing. Perhaps in future they may build an aircraft carrier. In the meantime there is a possibility to use STOVL F-35B on the 22DDH. Not a bad option IMHO.

spazsinbad wrote:

In the meantime there is a possibility to use STOVL F-35B on the 22DDH.

In the meanwhile, 22DDH is an ASW and fleet flag ship whose role is to protect the rest of fleet from a sub attack. There is no room to add fixed wing operation capability to it even if the flight deck could support it(it doesn't), as it got its hands full with ASW operations already.

'slowman2' just repeating your claims without further evidence to do so does not make these claims correct. Thanks.

Forum: General F-35 Forum

Possibility small STOVL carrier USN/USMC