Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Hobojet, that was a 'fun' thread, thanks for making.

BTW, I'd think it's waaay too premature to judge or try to determine the defense acquisition situations over the next 1-4 yrs. (but imo, the new president may be full of surprises to break many of the media's pre-conceptions?)

Either way my friend, don't lose sleep over it you know!! The vipers will pick up any slack over the next 6-8 yrs, as always!

F-16.net Sponsor

I hate to repeat a post from another thread, but it applies here too;

Weapons purchases, or any government purchses for that matter, fall under the following priorities:

1. Nice to have...
2. Want to have...
3. Need to have...
4. Can afford to have...

I voted for "more F-22s now" in the poll because it meets criteria 1,2, and 3 above. But all the wishing in 1,2, and 3 doesn't matter if you can't meet the requirements of number 4 above. In this military and tactical aviation oriented forum, of course the respondents are going to vote for more fighters. That's a given. I'll bet that if you had a poll on this forum asking if we "need' more B-2s, C-17s, tankers, CSAR helicopters, F-35s, new bombers, more missiles and bombs, more satellites, more personnel, more UAVs, more training hours, more range time, better military pay, etc, we'd say "yes" to all of it. If you went to equivalent Army, Navy, or Marine websites and posted polls about their favorite tanks, ships, or body armor, they'd vote "yes" too. All of these things meet requirements 1,2, and 3 above. But do they all meet number 4?

Part of the reason that the US is in a financial meltdown right now is that for the last few decades, (under both parties), Congress has answered the question of "can we afford it?" with "Who knows, but we'll buy it anyway!". The bill for that buffoonery is coming due. Unlike the members on this forum, Congress is going to have to make some very difficult choices over the next few years. You can expect some very big and important military programs to drop by the wayside. I suspect that we may get a few (12?) more F-22s, but not much more than that.

Yes we need more F-22As now, and I believe we can afford it! Economic stupidity or not our military still needs money and some of that has to go to programs like the Raptor.

thanks geogen for the post thats very smart of you to say...in fact it's really early to think what obama might do.

aside from that heres something i made that kinda goes off of what Meteor said...kind of.:

1.lots of money
2.more military power
3.less military power
4.risky
5.time consuming
6.saves money

poll options:
America doesn't need more f-22's yet:numbers that apply:3,4,6
America needs more f-22's now:numbers that apply:1,2,4
America should forget the f-22 and try to find something better:numbers that apply:3,4,5,6
[x]:numbers that apply:1,2,4,5

there is my chart, I think it might help some decide which has more pros and less cons.

any edits are welcome to this chart or diagram or whatever you want to call it. But thats why I posted it, so it could be improved to a point where the right choice was obvious.

p.s. the [x] option was created by geogen here is what he said:USAF needs at least 100 more F-22, plus something better to fill additional strategic deterrent roles such as FB-22xx.

I think 276 F-22s, 1763 F-35s and 100 or so FB-22/2018 Bombers will be enough to maintain military power...at least for the Air Force that is.

381 F-22s would be nice but its unrealistic, 276 is more likely assuming Obama supports the F-22, that will depend on if he listens to the top Air Force Brass or that idiot Gates, lets pray that he does the smart thing and listens to the Air Force.

I agree f-15eagle but heres something to think about... America isn't fighting an air war right now and obama wants to pull out anyway. so the chances of him thinking air force is pretty chancy, but like geogen said it's a bit too soon to think what obama might do.

hobojet wrote:

I agree f-15eagle but heres something to think about... America isn't fighting an air war right now and obama wants to pull out anyway. so the chances of him thinking air force is pretty chancy, but like geogen said it's a bit too soon to think what obama might do.

True but that does not mean we wont prepare for the next war which every 10 years we are in a war or two. It will mainly depend on 2 things:

1. Obama's choice of Defense Secretary.
2. How good of a case the Air Force Brass can give to the Pentagon.

So far the democratic Congress has been very supportive of defense spending and they even voting for $528 million in long lead items for continued production of the F-22.

The Air Force is more likely to get more F-22s under Obama than they would have under McCain.

Hey Hobo, Sweet!! Thanks for including me in your F-22 survey here! Laughing

Actually, as I just see now as f-15eagle includes FB-22xx under the 2018 bomber classification, it may provide you further data to revise your otherwise logical 'diagram' created above..

That is, maybe 200 FB-22xx could be produced as substitute for 100x B-3 medium 2018 bomber concept and still save perhaps $10 billion or more in total program costs! You could be talking perhaps $7-10billion in R&D for FB-22xx, compared to proposed B-3 concept, and perhaps 50% the production unit cost.

So maybe that would be the numbers 2 and 6. Salute

wow thats interesting I never thought that we might actually save money switching to another program. Good one geogen.

p.s. thanks for the clarification f-15eagle

diagram version 2.0

1.lots of money
2.more military power
3.less military power
4.risky
5.time consuming
6.saves money

poll options:
America doesn't need more f-22's yet:numbers that apply:3,4,6
America needs more f-22's now:numbers that apply:1,2,4
America should forget the f-22 and try to find something better:numbers that apply:3,4,5,6
[x]:numbers that apply:2,6

Though I generally consider myself a defense hawk, and though I believe that air dominance is essential to modern and future high-intensity warfare, I am also a product of the Cold-War era. Translation: while I believe in aggressively defending US interests, I don’t scare very easily.

From a strictly technological point of view, I doubt that the US truly needs the F-22 to be operational, at least not in significant number at present. The US already has developed sufficient technological & tactical alternatives that obviate any real need for operational F-22’s. But I’m very glad that the US has developed the F-22 in case a real need arises that justifies fielding the plane in significant number. I’m also very glad to see the Typhoon, the Rafale, and the Gripen being developed in Europe as likely supplements to US capability.

Perhaps the question isn’t a technological one, but rather an economic one. The best justification for fielding the F-22 may rest principally on its economic advantages since it almost certainly would substantially reduce USAF operating costs. In the cumulative, those recurrent reductions likely are great enough to offset any marginal procurement costs. On the other hand, the plane’s economic advantages might pale in comparison to fielding the F-35 in large numbers. If all goes as hoped regarding the F-35, even the economic justification for fielding the F-22 becomes increasingly suspect.

[X] along with the F-35. As soon as we don't, the the MiGs and Sukhois bought but countries we don't like or sort of like, will eventually be used against us or our friends. Besides, these and others continue to advance the technology and keep us aerospace engineers employed.

The American people need to see that the spending on military is too much.
We can afford healthcare if we just cut the amount of spending going to this runaway budget!

I myself who has lived on Military bases 90% of my life have seen the best of America design in planes like the F-15 and F-16 and these plane still get the job done but they are like the calvary charge of the old days.

We are fighting in a war that does not have a need for multi million dollar
stealth technology.

We don't need the F-22 we have air superiority everywhere we go so
to have America go without the most important thing Health care is just plane STUPID!!!!!

WE DON'T NEED THE F-22 ITS A WASTE OF TIME AND EFFORT
the older genartion is dying because they can't aford to stay alive.
but yet we can afford weapons that we don't need!

koushiro wrote:

The American people need to see that the spending on military is too much.
We can afford healthcare if we just cut the amount of spending going to this runaway budget!

I myself who has lived on Military bases 90% of my life have seen the best of America design in planes like the F-15 and F-16 and these plane still get the job done but they are like the calvary charge of the old days.

We are fighting in a war that does not have a need for multi million dollar
stealth technology.

We don't need the F-22 we have air superiority everywhere we go so
to have America go without the most important thing Health care is just plane STUPID!!!!!

WE DON'T NEED THE F-22 ITS A WASTE OF TIME AND EFFORT
the older genartion is dying because they can't aford to stay alive.
but yet we can afford weapons that we don't need!

So you sign up on a website just to post on a thread from over a year ago? And you don't even bother to you know, punctuate anything?

F- for effort.

f-15eagle wrote:

I think 276 F-22s, 1763 F-35s and 100 or so FB-22/2018 Bombers will be enough to maintain military power...at least for the Air Force that is.

381 F-22s would be nice but its unrealistic, 276 is more likely assuming Obama supports the F-22, that will depend on if he listens to the top Air Force Brass or that idiot Gates, lets pray that he does the smart thing and listens to the Air Force.

Hussein is not going to listen to anyone. His mind and agenda were well established long before he became our fearless leader. An example is this Afghan fiasco he's got going. He campaigned on this hogwash of how we took our eye off the ball there and he's gonna right the ship. Then he puts *his* guy in charge but low and behold *his* guy says I need 40K+ more troops. Well that was NEVER Husseins plan so he then tells all the generals to give him options. He gets 4 options. Low and behold they all involve actually sending troops and trying to win the *righteous* war and what does Hussein do? Well true to form he sends them all back out and tells them to revise their plans and come back when they have. All that loser wimp is doing is sending them back to revise them until they come back and say okMr Pres... this thing is unwinnable so lets just declare victory and get the hell out. Then of course he will take his generals advice and tell the American people..see.. I am listneing to my generals and doing as they say. What a frikkin joke he is. God help the United States Of America!!!

Hussein thouroughly intends to neuter the entire US military as well as all our intelligence agencys to the point of us being noting but a notch above 3rd world status. He subscribes to the belief that the US is done as a global power and he thinks he is going to move us along gently in our decline. I utterly dispise that worthless SOB!!!!!!!!!!

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Does America really need the F-22?