Forum: Careers & Assignments

Some more points to the thread community at large. I can only speak to the USAF full scale UAVs, not the smaller ones.

1) Predator/Reaper is actually flown with a stick, throttle, and rudder just like an airplane, except your watching a video screen being presented via satellite and the inherent comm lag that goes with that. It is not an easy job. Because of the lag, landing is conducted by a pilot at the actual airfield using direct comm link, no satellite. Trying to land that baby with a control lag will virtually guarantee a crash.

2) Global Hawk is "fly by mouse".

3) Both requires fully qualified, rated pilots or navigators (see next point). Part of it is the flying skills required by the Predator/Reaper. More importantly is the airmanship required to operate a flying vehicle. Understanding airspace and how the other aircraft operate around you is as important as the flying skills.

4) At one point (whether this is still true I do not know), the USAF allowed navigators to operate UAVs IF that had a civilian pilots license with advanced ratings (I forget which exactly but tickets like commercial, night, etc..) and mega-hours. This was because they had the airmanship skills.

A few years ago they announced that UAV time accounted for gates (pilots have to meet "gates", i.e. minimum time in flying assignments as they progress in their career). Thatw as a double edge sword...meant that pilots couldn't refuse a UAV assingment using missed-gates as an excuse, but if they did get stuck in a UAV assignment at least they would continue to get flight pay.

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More good info - thanks Roscoe!

There's something that crossed my mind here - eyesight. You don't need perfect eyesight to fly a UAV. Wouldn't it make sense to make positions open to guys who have correctable enough vision to learn the airmanship etc., but not good enough to fly combat aircraft where eyes aren't on a computer screen?

I admire the pilots flying the UAS. They definitely deserve the flight pay.
Don't want to be one, though, since I'm just one of the "Glory Boys". Yes I'd rather fly a jet into combat risking my life just to keep the "elitist chip" on my shoulder. I'm pretty confident that most of the UAS pilots feel the same way and in a sense feel a little 'cheated' having to conduct combat by these means, especially after working hard in other aircraft to conduct the missions as part of a combat team. I understand that ATFS and Parrothead may have come to an understanding but I have to say I'm disappointed, ATFS, for I think your opinion of "Glory Boy" pilots slipped out. Prima Donna's indeed, railing against not being in harms way and then you chide the pilots by insinuating they have forgotten the guys on the ground. Not to mention that it seems you think the flight pay is rediculus for not actually flying.

Damn...that sets me off.
I'm positive that to a pilot, we'd all rather be over there executing mission in person because we have not forgotten the guys on the ground and want to make sure no more get killed. I definitely don't think I'm better than any grunt on the ground risking his life, especially since I trained most of my life to be right there to support them.

The USAF UAS's are not even comparable to those flown by the other services. USAF UAS's carry weapons, require detailed coordination between the guy's in the "mobile trailer" to strike the target, often work directly with fighters via comm links and directly support CAOC level operations and decisions for the theater. The UAV's cited by ATFS_Crash are just RC modeler types providing squad, platoon, company and sometimes battalion surveillance information. No comparison can be made between the types and the level of decisions that have to be made in their employment.

The UAS pilots are under manned, often flying incredibly long hours for days at a time with little to no acknowledgement or reward. And because people think there is no risk involved it makes the perception worse. Just read the latest Air Force times and the article on the accident levels for the UAS's. Makes a good read, evidently they aren't that easy to fly.

Do they make a 2 seater? Very Happy

Do you have to go to survival school to work at Creech?

A non-rated buddy of mine is applying to fly the things, so they've opened it up some.

"They shot down a predator, so that's one less slot for me"

LMAO

Funny you mention the Predator grocery getter. Right now, Enlisted Aircrew are working as sensor operators on AF UAVs, so if you want to get technical...

As UAV drivers came from previous flying assignments, then yes, they have gone through SERE, and all of the other aircrew related training.

Thanks to everyone for the replies!! To sum it up, from a driver's perspective, it would be (at least) unfair to take away your sidestick AND cut down your paycheck. That's why I asked in the first place, but USAF did good on this.

P.S. @ATFS_crash: Great attitude mate, a man who acknowledges mistakes in such a good manner is a rare find...

peace, John.

Few weeks ago I read an article about the CONUS-based Predator pilots having a bizarre version of combat fatigue. Most combat folks go back to base and can wind down with their buds with whom they've have shared a common experience. Predator pilots blow some bad guy away with their Hellfire and then have to turn that off and go home to be with the wife and kiddies. Apparently that is a harder transition than folks anticipated.

UAVs are coing to Holloman, looks like an FTU will open in early '09. Not sure how many, 6 maybe, but it it sounds like a cake operation, training only. The interview teams did ask each applicant if they would consider an overseas deployment of 3-4 months. They said this may occur based on need "once in a while". I know some folks in the Predator program at Creech, it's a long hour, sometimes tedious job. The operators, i.e. pilot and sensor operator sometimes work a 14 hour day, try sitting in front of your computer that long! I'm sure there are a few folks wothout real lives that do that everyday playing Doom or Navy Seal, and think "no big deal". Roscoe you had it right, it is tough going home to your wife and kids a few hours after you schwacked a group of hajis firing from a rooftop at our soldiers. How could these guys even explain to a 6 year old, "what did you do at work today daddy?" The video from these sensors is very clear, until you have seen a human scattered to t he wind by pure firepower, you really can't imagine the mental images these folks walk around with everyday. My heart goes out to them and thier families.

From www.af.mil

Officer volunteers sought to operate unmanned aircraft

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10/7/2008 - RANDOLPH AIR FORCE BASE, Texas (AFNS) -- Air Force officers are being sought as volunteers to operate unmanned aircraft systems. Applications are due to the Air Force Personnel Center no later than Nov. 3.

The first ten officers selected will start UAS operator training in January 2009, and another ten will begin training in April 2009.

The UAS is a big part of the future of the Air Force, Air Force officials said. First-hand knowledge of its capabilities and operations will be critical to future combat effectiveness as well as future Air Force leadership. Pilots flying operational missions or working in the Predator Operations Center get a unique perspective on world events, typically while such events are in progress.

In order to volunteer, officers must complete the test of basic aviation skills, or TBAS, by Oct. 31. Testing locations for the TBAS can be found on the Pilot Candidate Selection Method Web site. A Common Access Card is required to access this site.

In addition to the TBAS, officers must meet the following requirements:

-- Captain with 4-6 years total active federal commissioned service as of Jan. 5, 2009
-- Be less than 30 years old Jan. 5, 2009
-- Air Force Officer Qualification Test minimum scores greater than 25 for pilot, and greater than 50 for combined pilot and navigator composites. Note: if no AFOQT is on file, complete the AFOQT by Oct. 31, 2008
-- Two years time on station by July 1, 2009
-- No previous military pilot training experience

With respect to eligibility to volunteer:
-- Non-rated line officers are eligible
-- Combat system officers, panel navigators, electronic warfare officers, weapons system officers and air battle managers are eligible if they are not currently in training, awaiting training, or previously eliminated from upgrade pilot training.
-- Pilots are not eligible for this program

Volunteers meeting the criteria above and wanting to apply must complete the Aircrew Training Candidate Data Summery, Air Force Form 215, and electronically forward the completed form to Pipeline and Training Assignment Branch at specialflyingprogram@randolph.af.mil by 4 p.m. CST, Nov. 3, 2008. Group or squadron commanders -- do not use a higher level -- must provide their recommendations on the form. No other documentation will be accepted as part of the application process.

Interested officers who have questions about the application process, or the qualifications, can contact AFPC's Pipeline and Training Assignment Branch at (210) 565-2330, DSN 665-2330.

More information about this program can be found on the AFPC "Ask" Web site by entering "UAS" in the search engine. Individuals also can contact the 24-hour Air Force Contact Center at (800) 616-3775.

--> EDIT <--
Just realised that I posted this after having only read through to page "2"...but I think my answers are still valid.

TC is absolutely correct. ATFS_crash, you are partially correct. To fly any of the large UAVs for the USAF (Predator, reaper, anything that needs an actual runway of helipad) you currently MUST be a rated (pilot) officer. The reason is simple; the aircraft still shares airspace with manned platforms, the pilot must interact with air traffic control just like a manned platform, and on long-range missions quite often flys "airways", highways in the sky, that are again shared by manned platforms. Since the UAV must operate in the same enviornment as manned platforms, they need pilots with the same training. The program TC mentioned involves letting non-rated (aka not a pilot) officers who are aircrew, such as navigators and electronic warfare officers, the opportunity to be a UAV pilot, after going through suitable training. There was talk of opening the pilot slots to enlisted members who already hold a civilian commercial pilots license, but that has been put on the shelf.

The USAF, as do all the services now, does have smaller "backpack" UAVs such as the RQ-11, scaneagle, and others that are operated by enlisted operators. These operators do not wear wings, do not get flight pay, do not log hours, and are not considered pilots. The aircraft are for the most part autonomous, and at most can be controlled by a radio control transmitter almost identical to the ones used at RC flying fields.

Flight pay - Yes, any rated officer who flies a UAV gets flight pay, just like he/she did flying their C-130/B-52/F-16. They wear their wings, they log hours that count towards their "gates" for flight time, they maintain currency for required events, and they're held to the same medical standards as a transport/bomber/helicopter pilot. That's not to say some things can't be waived that wouldn't be waived if flying a manned platform, but the standard is still there. The sensor operators currently get the short end of the stick; they're held to the same medical standards as aircrew, the same regulations as aircrew, and the same crew rest requirements as aircrew; but they don't get flight pay, don't get to log hours towards "gates", and in general don't get any of the other benefits that apply to an aircrew member. They're not even classified as aircrew, in their personnal records. Rather, they're intelligence personnel who are trained to look at a video monitor rather than a photograph.

Finally; you don't have to be a "fighter pilot" to be a UAV pilot. You can come from helicopters, heavy transports, trainers, or any other flying platform in the military. If you volunteer (or are voluntold) you can go to the UAV. If you don't have experience pulling the trigger, you'll be trained. If you do, you'll have to be trained anyway, because the UAV isn't your old F-16.

Now, I'm not a UAV crewmember; however, I'm in a unit that damn near got BRAC'd to be a predator unit, that is doing a great deal of the integration work to bring the predator unit to guard/reserve bases anyway, may get a predator mission in the near future, and has given up several enlisted and a couple of officers to predator units. Whether having a close association without actually doing the job passes muster for some on these boards really isn't a concern to me; but, I do think I can speak with a *little* more authority about it than some others. Off my soapbox now Very Happy

Forum: Careers & Assignments

Paycheck - F-16 pilot versus same rank UAV pilot