Forum: F-16 News

<a href="news_article2350.html">Two USAF F-16 jets inadvertently crossed into Turkish airspace</a>

Come on guys, some papers here in Turkiye also say it is an "inadvertent" act. You can tell this to inexperienced public and they may believe or not.. On the other hand, most of you very well know that with this level of tech it is quite hard for two vipers, at the same time, to cross over the border.
Assume one has a defected system or its pilot has no idea where he is going, what about the other one? Is he sleeping, too?

What I think is, this is a deliberate act either to scare off Turkish army operating just on the Iraqi border line against pkk - maybe willing to cross the border to pursue the terrorists - or to recce border brigates and establishments.

Otherwise, why do the USAF vipers need to close so near to the border or even fly in northern Iraq, very close to Turkish border, where there is no air threat or hostile activity??

A similar event happened in the past, in 1993, when a (or two) UN Black Hawk was taken down by USAF some 20 miles away from Turkish Black Hawks, which were conducting a legal operation in northern Iraq to blow a terrorist camp with estimated over 2000 terrorists accomodating and operating against Turkiye at the time. No explanations came from the US, on why they took down the Hawk.

As I said before, the US government and army will have the "real" victory, when they learn to respect others. Victory is not killing over 600,000 civillians with no legal cause. Victory is not supporting a terrorist group assaulting an ally from northern Iraq by doing nothing to prevent them or to prevent your ally to terminate the threat as you stuck in deep mud in other places.
Victory is not calling your threat as terror and opening war on nations all over the world but calling other terror groups as freedom fighters as they do not pose a threat against you, "yet", or, you utilise them for your own purposes...

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A deliberate act to scare off one of the few true allies we have in the region?? I know you are upset with the way Iraq has gone... but I'm afraid you are mistaken when it comes to this.
Mistakes happen. We are, after all, human.

All- Please avoid getting into politics here. Emotional responses will serve no one. Otto has an opinion. He is entitled to it no matter how much we disagree. This website is best served if this thread ends now.

Cheers

I also respect your views viper1234, as I also respected Greek views in the past, where we had expressed our feelings dozens of times. But noone said let's finish and close the thread at the very beginning, although we had deep contradictory understanding. Is that your way of American democracy? You have a very established democracy when you start to express your views but when the things are opposite, things are totally different on your side.
This is a forum where we share our free opinions, or is it not?

By the way, covering bags and humiliating ally soldiers in Suleymaniye was a mistake too, viper1234? Taking military and confidential documents that belong to Turkish government in custody for months and not giving them back, were these mistakes too?

Two USAF vipers flying 4 minutes, how many miles can you calculate?, with that tech on board, in an aerospace, where you do not belong to, is not a mistake I am afraid, or they are really stupid to deepen the Turkish/US undercover crisis....

Come on mate, are you kidding??? Very Happy

Otto's concerns are valid.

in the presence of sophisticated navigational equipment, availability of flight plans with pilots and under constant contact with the controllers, how is it possible to stray inside a restricted territory and that also not for just a minute but four minutes.

an impartial and unbiased investigation and explanation is a good way to sort things out.

I attend to Otto's statements and as you known all navigations systems show you all border.

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM Posts: 760

Some of you are being very hypocritical. You're banging the drum's of war when Turkey itself has a history of border violations. For most part Turkey's government hasn't condemned the US, so what is your point other than to stir up hate and war? It seems like you're more interested in promoting hate and war.

The US and Turkey are more or less allies, however your posts are inflammatory in such a way to incite bigotry and war between the US and Turkey. So don't blame the US, blame yourself.

You should take some notes of some instances of incursions of US borders. You should learn to be as friendly, tolerant and forgiving as the US.

There has even been a few cases that semi-opponent aircraft having emergencies and were allowed to land and refuel, repair or sit out the weather. I think there was even a few cases where there was no charges for fuel or runway fees ect… I've heard of some cases where crews were given coffee, donuts and sandwiches at no cost.

A couple of more notable events:

Quote:

In 1974 a Russian spy plane was allowed to land at a U.S. airbase in Alaska, was refueled and allowed to leave without Americans boarding it.

In 1993, a Chinese civilian airplane made an emergency landing at another military airbase in Alaska, and Americans treated injured passengers before they were flown out on another Chinese plane.

You're blaming the US for an act of aggression, when they're clearly wasn't one, you're clearly banging the drums of war and hate.

Otto wrote:

<a href="news_article2350.html">Two USAF F-16 jets inadvertently crossed into Turkish airspace</a>

Come on guys, some papers here in Turkiye also say it is an "inadvertent" act. You can tell this to inexperienced public and they may believe or not.. On the other hand, most of you very well know that with this level of tech it is quite hard for two vipers, at the same time, to cross over the border.
Assume one has a defected system or its pilot has no idea where he is going, what about the other one? Is he sleeping, too?

What I think is, this is a deliberate act either to scare off Turkish army operating just on the Iraqi border line against pkk - maybe willing to cross the border to pursue the terrorists - or to recce border brigates and establishments.

Otherwise, why do the USAF vipers need to close so near to the border or even fly in northern Iraq, very close to Turkish border, where there is no air threat or hostile activity??

A similar event happened in the past, in 1993, when a (or two) UN Black Hawk was taken down by USAF some 20 miles away from Turkish Black Hawks, which were conducting a legal operation in northern Iraq to blow a terrorist camp with estimated over 2000 terrorists accomodating and operating against Turkiye at the time. No explanations came from the US, on why they took down the Hawk.

As I said before, the US government and army will have the "real" victory, when they learn to respect others. Victory is not killing over 600,000 civillians with no legal cause. Victory is not supporting a terrorist group assaulting an ally from northern Iraq by doing nothing to prevent them or to prevent your ally to terminate the threat as you stuck in deep mud in other places.
Victory is not calling your threat as terror and opening war on nations all over the world but calling other terror groups as freedom fighters as they do not pose a threat against you, "yet", or, you utilise them for your own purposes...

Your post seems to be a deliberate flame bait. Even worse than that, your post seems to be trying to drum up hostilities between the US and Turkey, which are now more or less allies.

Otto wrote:

What I think is, this is a deliberate act either to scare off Turkish army operating just on the Iraqi border line against pkk - maybe willing to cross the border to pursue the terrorists - or to recce border brigates and establishments.

You seem to have a double standard. So when Turkey crosses the border into Iraq you assume their intentions are good? Yet when the US ALLEGEDLY crosses the border with Turkey you assume US intentions are bad?

So each time Canadian fighters enter US airspace, I should claim that their activity is nefarious?

I suspect the US fighters were there to investigate reports of possible nefarious border activity and were there to investigate and defend if necessary. It is quite possible that the government of Turkey requested the assistance or notified the US of the nefarious activity, so it is quite possible that the fighters were there in cooperation with Turkey.

Remember that one hand doesn't always know what the other is doing. It sounds like some people are jumping the gun and some are trying to capitalize on the situation by stirring up the pot, to promote terrorism and anti-US bigotry.

Asia Times wrote:

Turkey recently launched a massive military operation involving more than 250,000 troops against the PKK (nearly double the number of US troops in Iraq), concentrated in the mountains along Turkey's borders with Iran and Iraq. Extensive incursions into northern Iraq have been reported, aimed at cutting off the PKK's supply lines to Turkey from its camps in northern Iraq. Turkey also claims that "the PKK has recently increased its activities and obtained weapons from Iraq

Source
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/HE13Ak03.html

Otto wrote:

A similar event happened in the past, in 1993, when a (or two) UN Black Hawk was taken down by USAF some 20 miles away from Turkish Black Hawks, which were conducting a legal operation in northern Iraq to blow a terrorist camp with estimated over 2000 terrorists accomodating and operating against Turkiye at the time. No explanations came from the US, on why they took down the Hawk.

Don't you think it could have been a case of friendly fire?

By chance is this one of the many incidences that the helicopters were operating without IFF transponders, on or in correct mode, or code?

Otto wrote:

learn to respect others.

I think you should take your own advice. Perhaps you should think better before making such apparently bigoted accusations, like you have in your post.

Otto wrote:

Victory is not killing over 600,000 civillians with no legal cause.

So why are you advocating the murder of innocent civilians with no legal cause? Remember it was Iraq/Saddam that refused to abide by the peace agreement. Remember that it is terrorists, and subversives with their own greedy intentions that are doing the vast majority of the killing and virtually all of the illegal killing.

The deaths in Iraq are Iraq's and terrorists fault, not the US or allies.

Saddam never fully complied with the peace agreements, the whole time Iraq had been subverting the peace since Iraq invaded Kuwait to murder, rape and pillage.

So you're in favor of letting Saddam have WMDs. After all he was raping and murdering his own people, if he was willing to do that, just imagine what he could've done to the Middle East into the world if no one challenged his greed and genocide.

MORE THAN 500 WMD FOUND IN IRAQ SINCE 2003
http://www.mrc.org/press/2006/press20060623.asp

There is nothing illegal about the US trying to bring peace to Iraq. The coalition could have acted on their own because by default Iraq started this war by not complying to the peace agreement. However to be politically correct the coalition lobbied for and got UN approval to enforce the peace agreement.

Using your logic we had no legal cause to fight Germany or Japan after they attacked us and declared war on us.

To head you off at the pass, don't try to equivocate the few minor prisoner abuses to the much more massive and severe abuse that has been done under the Iraq government.

Peace is not guaranteed. The coalition enforcing the peace agreements, does not guarantee that there will be peace in Iraq, by toppling Saddam and allowing a new government to form, is one of the best chances for peace in Iraq.

Even if Iraq remains a breeding ground for terrorism, at least we gave peace a chance.

Peace also relative. Even if the tribal bickering continues in Iraq, that is better than letting its spill over to other countries and the rest of the world. Even if some day Armageddon comes at least we did our best to postpone and prevent it.

The fact is for the foreseeable future there will be terrorism, is just a matter of trying to limit the intensity and frequency of terrorist events.

I think it is much like the war on crime. It cannot be completely won, but to not fight crime or terrorism guarantees failure. The best you can realistically do is to minimize it.

Your figures are also questionable.

newcargo_1978 wrote:

I am afraid of the U.S to bomb Turkish Cities or Villages by mistakenly. No body even the childrens doesn't believe such a kind of responses. We are talking about U.S Air Force. They have a technology to put a laser dot and bomb the dot.ome On. The message is clear.

The message is clear, however some people refuse to see it. The part of the reason that the US has precision guided weapons is to keep the amount of collateral damage to a minimum. Would you rather the US use nuclear bombs? The U. S. is even developing smaller bombs. The coalition sometimes even use inert “bombs”.

Would you feel more comfortable about if you knew that we didn't often use precision guided conventional weapons? Do you really think your cities would be safer if we used dumb bombs? Do you think there would be less risk of collateral damage if we carpet bombed or used nukes? Do you really think the borderline cities in Turkey would be more safe if we used dumb bombs or nukes to combat terrorists along the border in the Iran?

Obviously it is in Turkey's own interest that the US use precision weapons.

Otto wrote:

really stupid to deepen the Turkish/US undercover crisis

If you know it's stupid, then why do you do it?

Otto wrote:

This is a forum where we share our free opinions, or is it not?

This form is for relatively free and open debate, however there are limits. Your posts are extremely inflammatory. You are inciting war between the US and Turkey. You seem to be quite hypocritical and bigoted.

If you want to start political threads you should do them in off-topic. If you're going to continue to be inflammatory, incite war unjust war because of your own bigotry I suggest you not post at all.

Even when there is freedom of speech there are limits. Excessively inflammatory posts are subject to editing, deletion, locking, ect…

I wouldn't blame the mods if they locked, edited, moved, deleted or banned on this thread.

Using the freedom of speech is an excuse to violate message board rules, incite violence and promote bigotry. I'm all for the freedom of speech as long as that freedom does not infringe on the rights of others.

====
Moderators, if you find my response too political, I will not object if you edit or delete it. But please try to be fair about it, if you do so. Wink

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM Posts: 760

akruse21 wrote:

Look at all the one post wonders coming out.

Agreed. One can't help but wonder if several if not all of these posts are from the same individual or if it is some sort of inflammatory political IM group that has ties to terrorism or political subversion.

Shimud wrote:

Otto's concerns are valid. in the presence of sophisticated navigational equipment, availability of flight plans with pilots and under constant contact with the controllers, how is it possible to stray inside a restricted territory and that also not for just a minute but four minutes. an impartial and unbiased investigation and explanation is a good way to sort things out.

Valid? Who says? Sounds like you're opinion, and a poor one.

Why bother to investigate, even the Turkey government dismisses the situation.

Perhaps the Turkey government requested the support of the US, and perhaps the pilots were investigating if some suspicious border activity crossed into Turkey. Perhaps the US was helping Turkey to track terrorists that were possibly entering Turkey.

It could just as well be a navigational oversight, on part of the lead pilot. A 4-minute oversight over an ally is not that bad.

Quote:

Foreign Minister Abdullah Gul also played down the incident saying such incursions occurred from time to time

newcargo_1978 wrote:

Secondly, remmember the date 2nd October 1992. There was a practice (Display Determination) in the Aegean Sea. A Turkish Frigate Ship shot by two Sparrow Misile by Saratoga. Result 5 martry(died) 22 veteran. Please check the court.

Third, 2 tomahawk misile fall down inside of Turkish air space. The misile only 300 mt close to the vilage.

Even precision missiles like the tomahawk can go off course. So don't try to tell me (or imply) that the F-16s incursion into Turkey was a deliberate nefarious act.

Friendly fire happens. It's best to be tolerant and forgiving and understanding in situations like this unless there is a strong indication of something nefarious.

Israeli attack killed 34 U.S. servicemen and wounded at least 173

USS Liberty incident
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

kurdistanica wrote:

Most of Turks are still dreaming of "Ottoman Empire". Instability of Iraq makes most of them very happy, because they see USA as the biggest enemy or devil(like Mr.Mahmoudinajad). But in last 15 years USA has won much sympathie of Kurds. Kurds are the most important new -growing- power of Midast. Supporting a democratic Kurdistan is a big help for peace and stability in Mideast.

I'm not sure that it is most, however I agree with your post.

I wonder if there's any connection between "Ottoman Empire" and the poster that goes by the handle Otto? Wink

Perhaps it shows his real colors? Perhaps it shows his links to supporting terrorism?

newcargo_1978 wrote:

I am afraid of the U.S to bomb Turkish Cities or Villages by mistakenly.

It is possible but it is quite unlikely, it is less likely using precision weapons that would be using dumb bombs. It's easy to stray off course while you are searching for a target.

It's part of a phenomena called target fixation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbKLB7xNWhs

However before a potential target is attacked, there usually is an effort to identify the target and location before firing. The modern equipment and precision guidance systems reduce the chance of friendly fire accidents.

To ATFS Crash:

Sir,

If you are not deliberately comparing apples with oranges, then you are disturbingly uninformed.

Your likening the emergency landings of various nations' planes on US soil to border violations of Turkish territory or airspace, is either misunderstanding or misrepresenting the situation. From your vantage point you may not know but such emergency landings as those you mention are a way of life in Turkey, as Turkey is situated on major flight routes between East and West.

What we are talking about here is the world's best trained pilots flying the world's most hi-tech planes. Veering into a sovereign territory by accident is unfathomable and inexcusable.

Turkey has and will cross into another nation's territory based on United Nation's charter regulating defense of sovereign territory and preemptive strikes. One majestic example of which is Israeli strikes into Tunisian territory about 2000 km away from Israeli territory, I believe in the late seventies. To destroy PLO camps in Tunisia when Israel took this action, it was applauded and understood by the world at large. Turkey has every international right to protect her territory and strike terrorist bases at its doorstep. Please liken this to US striking terrorist bases in Afghanistan clear around the world. If US can strike terrorist bases half the globe away, why do you label Turkey doing the same as a violation of territory?

When Turkey crosses into Iraq, it will do so to protect her country against terrorism. So you can not establish a similarity between those crossings into US air space violation in Alaska, neither can you claim that US forces were threatened by Turkey and that was the reason for the airspace violation.

US needs to learn to be friends indeed! We do not want an ally that supports PKK terrorists and turns around to us and lies. Turkey is nobody's underdog. If US wishes to stay allies with Turkey (which is to the good of both parties and I personally highly support that) fine, it suits us; but you may not do so, by cooking up all sorts of deals with terrorists and then crying about terrorism when you are faced with it.

Finally, a sufi saying: "Either appear as you are, or be as you appear!"

Regards

Otto wrote:

Two USAF vipers flying 4 minutes, how many miles can you calculate?, with that tech on board, in an aerospace, where you do not belong to, is not a mistake I am afraid, or they are really stupid to deepen the Turkish/US undercover crisis....

Come on mate, are you kidding??? Very Happy

No, actually are YOU kidding me? You do know that the US operates aircraft out of Turkey and has done so for some time right? Who cares if a few US aircraft fly over by mistake?

komikmen wrote:

I attend to Otto's statements and as you known all navigations systems show you all border.

Then you sir do not know much about navigation systems. The nav systems in US F-16's do not show any borders, just coordinates.

My replies in bold...check

vibeman wrote:

To ATFS Crash:

Sir,

If you are not deliberately comparing apples with oranges, then you are disturbingly uninformed.

Your likening the emergency landings of various nations' planes on US soil to border violations of Turkish territory or airspace, is either misunderstanding or misrepresenting the situation. From your vantage point you may not know but such emergency landings as those you mention are a way of life in Turkey, as Turkey is situated on major flight routes between East and West.

What we are talking about here is the world's best trained pilots flying the world's most hi-tech planes. Veering into a sovereign territory by accident is unfathomable and inexcusable.

Wow...thanks for the compliment! US F-16's are not the most hi-tech F-16's made. Make sure you get your facts straight...it should read, a sovereign territory that is allied to the US from which the US already has an airbase in and operates aircraft out of...and has done so for many years.

Turkey has and will cross into another nation's territory based on United Nation's charter regulating defense of sovereign territory and preemptive strikes. One majestic example of which is Israeli strikes into Tunisian territory about 2000 km away from Israeli territory, I believe in the late seventies. To destroy PLO camps in Tunisia when Israel took this action, it was applauded and understood by the world at large. Turkey has every international right to protect her territory and strike terrorist bases at its doorstep. Please liken this to US striking terrorist bases in Afghanistan clear around the world. If US can strike terrorist bases half the globe away, why do you label Turkey doing the same as a violation of territory?

Why is the above relevant here??

When Turkey crosses into Iraq, it will do so to protect her country against terrorism. So you can not establish a similarity between those crossings into US air space violation in Alaska, neither can you claim that US forces were threatened by Turkey and that was the reason for the airspace violation.

Alaska?? Where did that come from?? Of course we wern't threatened by Turkey...I don't recall reading that anyone ever said that...

US needs to learn to be friends indeed! We do not want an ally that supports PKK terrorists and turns around to us and lies. Turkey is nobody's underdog. If US wishes to stay allies with Turkey (which is to the good of both parties and I personally highly support that) fine, it suits us; but you may not do so, by cooking up all sorts of deals with terrorists and then crying about terrorism when you are faced with it.

Last time I checked we have not made friends with any terrorist organizations. Do you actually know what your talking about??

Finally, a sufi saying: "Either appear as you are, or be as you appear!"

Regards

[/b]

kurdistanica wrote:

Most of Turks are still dreaming of "Ottoman Empire". Instability of Iraq makes most of them very happy, because they see USA as the biggest enemy or devil(like Mr.Mahmoudinajad).

what an idiot and liar.... Go back your cave, terrorist...

vibeman wrote:

To ATFS Crash:

Sir,

If you are not deliberately comparing apples with oranges, then you are disturbingly uninformed.

Your likening the emergency landings of various nations' planes on US soil to border violations of Turkish territory or airspace, is either misunderstanding or misrepresenting the situation. From your vantage point you may not know but such emergency landings as those you mention are a way of life in Turkey, as Turkey is situated on major flight routes between East and West.

What we are talking about here is the world's best trained pilots flying the world's most hi-tech planes. Veering into a sovereign territory by accident is unfathomable and inexcusable.

Turkey has and will cross into another nation's territory based on United Nation's charter regulating defense of sovereign territory and preemptive strikes. One majestic example of which is Israeli strikes into Tunisian territory about 2000 km away from Israeli territory, I believe in the late seventies. To destroy PLO camps in Tunisia when Israel took this action, it was applauded and understood by the world at large. Turkey has every international right to protect her territory and strike terrorist bases at its doorstep. Please liken this to US striking terrorist bases in Afghanistan clear around the world. If US can strike terrorist bases half the globe away, why do you label Turkey doing the same as a violation of territory?

When Turkey crosses into Iraq, it will do so to protect her country against terrorism. So you can not establish a similarity between those crossings into US air space violation in Alaska, neither can you claim that US forces were threatened by Turkey and that was the reason for the airspace violation.

US needs to learn to be friends indeed! We do not want an ally that supports PKK terrorists and turns around to us and lies. Turkey is nobody's underdog. If US wishes to stay allies with Turkey (which is to the good of both parties and I personally highly support that) fine, it suits us; but you may not do so, by cooking up all sorts of deals with terrorists and then crying about terrorism when you are faced with it.

Finally, a sufi saying: "Either appear as you are, or be as you appear!"

Regards

With regards to the Russian spy plane: I would have to say this does directly reflect the supposed "incursion" that "may" have happened. Why was a spy plane so close to Alaska (I would say over) that he could not land in Russia? This was a deliberate violation of U.S. airspace in which the U.S. gov. was willing to allow a safe landing and a free return to Russia. The U.S. had every legal right to shoot that plane down but that did not happen.

I don't see how this "issue" is an issue at all. Navigation systems are not 100% perfect and there may have been some mis-communication. As someone said earlier "we are all human, we make mistakes."

Wow. I thought I was logged on to f-16.net - what is all this cr@p doing on here? Shrug

Everyone may have valid points and concerns but that doesn't mean it is appropriate to post them here.

Besides, why is everyone getting worked up over unauthorized border crossings? Given our (US) porous southern border we obviously don't take such things seriously.... LMAO

According papers in Turkey, 2 USAF F-16 jets have penetrated 80 km into Turkiye over the region of Uzumlu.

I think the situation should be considered in terms of timing. That is why, we can't compare it with some similiar events taking place in the past between [Link pending approval] and some other contries.

Frankly, I have to point out that I am one of the people who thinks this event didn't occur accidently. This is, you know, kind of making Turkiye fool. OK, Let's say that such things can happen accidently from time to time but not when all the nerves are streched to max, and when everybody is expecting a millitary operation from Turkiye against terrorists in [Link pending approval]

I hope nothing bad will happen, we have been in the region for more than 1000 years. I even don't want to think about aftermath of the scenario which may come to reality, if the steps are not taken wisely.

probably, we have to be careful about our biggest supplier ([Link pending approval]) in military. Because we can't do anything in the regions where [Link pending approval] is active.

Greetings from the Turkish diaspora in EU.

Forum: F-16 News

Turkish Aerospace violation by USAF vipers