Forum: Mishaps

Gums,

Yup only two choices, a mechanical or that damned taking a nap into the dirt... Darned shame.

INO,

Before you start schooling folks, how many times have you wrapped a Mach Meter around 2.5 times, how many combat missions do you have, and how many times have you landed a Viper with the LEF stuck full up? Let’s see, you don't have enough digits to count the times that Gums has done ALL OF THOSE, and a few others here have done a few of those multiple times... After planting 48 friends in 15 years I've been pretty accurate at calling the causes. It doesn’t make you feel any better, but you live by learning from your friend’s mistakes and not repeating them… So, what again was your background for your point? Do you know who Sammy Small is? To quote "Sammy Small", Foxtrot 'em all!

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Very sad to hear this tragic event. My prayers go out to all of Lieutenant Commander Davis' loved ones.

RIP sir

JR,

No Viper time as the only navy unit that has them is NSAWC. Rhino doesnt go to 2.5 nor do many other planes in the modern military, the Viper included. Never had a LEF stuck up and I'll chalk that up to our great maintainers. As far as combat time we'll be leaving again here shortly for 7 or 8 months to go take the fight to the bad man as our CO says. Ive "planted" a few friends since 1988 and it never pleasant. And if we are asking questions, how much Hornet time do you have? How much time in the blues or how many night traps? And whose johnson is bigger. These questions arent the point nor should they be.

The background for my point is the one looked at NAVY wide. Lets not talk smack about what coulda shoulda or would've happened until after the board makes a finding. In private we get together at the club or ready room and talk about things, but not to the public until the investigation has taken place. It's called professional courtesy. If you dont like that then too bad. Gums and I have talked about it in private as well and he has no issue with what I said or how I said it. And I would guess that after 15 years of planting your friends, you didnt run out to a forum and talk smack within hours of the incident. I'm fairly sure that none of the branches say much of anything until after a board has made its findings. I agree that we all learn from mistakes, but it might be wise to find out exactly what caused the accident before you start speculation and rumors. I'm sure Kojak's family would appreciate the gesture.

INO

Salute!

I do not wish us to get into the "short arm" inspection, or the Annie Oakley song from that musical. You know, "anything you can do, I can do better".

Let's face it. Some of us can really do better than you! Heh heh.

So let's knock off all the taunting and bragging, huh.

I have talked with the "super bug" troop about this and have agreed to withhold any further comment upon cause/contributing factors for the Blue pilot's demise.
*******************
BTW, I couldn't figure out who was associated with a "rhino", as best I recall they became dinosaurs like the A-7D and F-8 and F-105 and F-106 and A-6 variants other than the Prowler. So I am on record opposing the use of the term "Rhino" for the "super bug". Fer chrissakes, let those folks who flew the real Rhino rest in peace without newbies usurping their nickname for the jet. It was one of the reasons we early F-16 troops didn't like "Fighting Falcon" versus "Viper". The politically correct USAF has always bowed down and spread their cheeks to any politician who had a problem with a nickname. OTOH, I would expect the nasal radiators to respect those who flew the real Rhino to give a little respect.

The Rhino was actually the USAF version of the Double Ugly (the term we single seat, single engine folks used). Best I can tell, the Squids used Phantom, even tho there was a previous Phantom in the lineage.

So now we can wait until the accident report comes out.

I have heard on good authority that some type of data recorder was recovered. So let's wait until we "see the tape".

out,

Gums,

Yup, I concur. The Rhino was a big rig...

INO,

Copy, glad you have learned who the Zoo grad you were talking about is.

JR

Go with god sir.
Heres to early retirement Guiness

This thread has hit alot of nerves. Mine included. Way back when this board was populated by professionals (read: those who fly them). Then, we maintainers were let in.

But here's the firewall------------

Because here is where everyone else is.

And before you start, I am NOT slamming anyone. I'm just saying that there are those of us who really have lost friends in crashes. I lost my pilot to a midair and cried for hours. No one and I do mean no one can say "I know how you feel" when you haven't. My squadron CO sat me down and pulled from his drawer his list. If you think, "What list?" you are proving my point.

Professionally we hope for the best. But it speculation ends at "Did they get out?" After that it's silence until the board findings are published and maybe for some time afterwards. Sometimes never. That's respect for the dead. That's how you pick yourself up and go back to work. Knowing that, "There will be others".

Please lock this thread until the board publishes its findings.

Salute!

OK, maddog, we hear you. We feel your pain.

So back in early 1984 we hear that someone has crashed out near Wildcat Mountain.

The "yutes" were really about to cash in and go fly for United.

It was the third prang in a year, and the dude was recently coronated the USAF "Top Gun" at the Gunsmoke comp. Roy Niesz (spelling?). CO of the 421st at Hill.

He died "trying too hard" and letting pride get in the way of judgement.

So about three days later, the Wing King demands the HUD tape from the accident board in order to show all of us, especially the yutes, that there was nothing wrong with the Viper.

We all file into the theater and Col Helton rolls the tape. He also had the tape from the other element in the formation that showed how the pass was supposed to look.

So we see this tape and we all look at each other and say, "What the hell was this guy thinking?".

I have a second generation copy of that HUD tape and you have to know a lot to make sense of it until the last second and a half - when the sage brush gets real clear just before impact.

So the Wing King shows it waaaaay before the accident board makes a determination. He had to get control of all of us to realize that the jet worked as advertised. It was a bitter pill. But he succeeded in keeping our morale up, despite the personal loss we all felt.

Then, two months later another squadron commander prangs at Eagle Range on a night mission. Results of that were not made known right away, but it was clear what had happened. That was the one where I went out on the deck that afternoon, raised my arms to the sky and cried like a baby.

So forgive those of us who have been there and have many tee-shirts. We may seem callous and cold-hearted. We still share the grief and sorrow, no matter if the guy did something stupid or some mechanical doofer bit him in the **** or he hit a 40-pound pelican, or whatever.

Our problem is we look for certain things that provide a path of causal factors. I can discuss this at length on PM's, but I have agreed with INO not to go further for now.

For now, I raise a toast to Blue #6 and will likely share a cold one with him one day in that neat Hootch Bar in the sky.

Gums sends ....

Gums,

100% on that BDA pard...

INO,

Copy.

Everyone else,

Yup, when you stare into the burned out cockpit where a best friend and a true American Warrior died, it stirs some very deep emotions.

JR

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM Posts: 760

maddog2840 wrote:

Sometimes never. That's respect for the dead.

I agree with most of what you said. I understand your point of view and actually partly feel that way myself, however (respectfully) I don't think things should be tucked away and hidden. If it's a subject you choose not to talk about I can understand that. And of course if we are told we cannot talk about it and if there is a risk that our talk could leak to the media or somehow contaminate the investigation, then I would agree that we shouldn't discuss it until the investigation reaches a finding.

However I don't think mishaps should be buried and forgotten, I think they should we remembered and studied in great detail for those that are interested in preventing future accidents.

How would you honor the dead the best? Do you hide the details of their death? Or do you use mishaps to try to save others? When life gives you lemons, try to make lemonade. Test pilots volunteer to risk their lives and many of them have given their lives trying to make it safer for others. In my opinion, if someone dies in a mishap, what better way to honor a person's death by using the information to save others.

Sometimes I am thought of as a jerk (a polite example) because I point out safety issues. I think it is better to embarrass or punish a person, then to let people take unnecessary unreasonable risks and possibly die.

I have known a lot of people die in aviation related mishaps. I have even lost one cousin and one uncle in aviation accidents (both in ultralights in separate incidents). They both were excellent pilots, and had a lot of flight hours on much more advanced aircraft. However it was minor pilot errors that killed them both. All it takes is a momentary lapse of reason or an oversight to kill you in this business or sport. There is no room for complacency or overconfidence, they kill mercilessly. I regret that I never had an in-depth discussion about aircraft safety with them. I think if I was there I could've prevented my cousins death. I think my uncle was rusty, I think he should have had a few refresher flights and simulated flights before going up on a maiden flight of an ultralight.

People shouldn't be so offended when no ruling is called pilot error. Pilots are people and they make mistakes, and they still can often fly planes better than computers. People are more adaptable, and even computers make mistakes. Often when something is ruled “pilot error” there are often things that the pilot could not help that led up to the mishap.

I would like to speculate on the incident more, but for now I will bite my lip.

Part of the reason I like to speculate is to keep focused on safety, and have a more in-depth understanding of safety.

I suspect Captain Glen Edwards & Lt. Col. John Stapp would agree with me.

They did a tribute on the TV here yesterday. Was real nice, just about the length of a standard commercial, and unannounced.

I remember watching the Angel crash at Moody, and when I saw it, I remember thinking to myself 'wow, that didn't look like a maneuver to cause a crash'. Like Gums said, the guy was in traffic coming around to prepare for landing. I also saw the crash of the T-Bird at Mountain Home. Again, it was interesting to watch, cause I remember thinking to myself 'this guy is pretty low, hope he makes it' then he pancaked the bird right after I thought it.

Anyway, what I am trying to say is, the guy had to be top notch to get the job. I am sure he was a fantastic aviator. I hope his family is able to cope with all the media attention that something like this generates. I hope that his children remember him as a hero. I hope, that even if it was G-Loc or some other pilot induced problem, that he will be remembered for his accomplishments. Not for this tragic event.

Quote:

I would like to speculate on the incident more, but for now I will bite my lip.

That sums it ups pretty well.

Obviously a side effect of the profession is that we pick apart every crash to know what happened and how to prevent a repeat.

My first wife heard so many crash stories that she refused to know if I was going to fly. Worried too much.

I wrote this back in November when we lost Troy 'Trojan' Gilbert and his Viper in Iraq, but it seems to be just as fitting here, so I hope that no one minds if I repost it:

Quote:

I'll never forget the day that Tico and Cujo were shot down back during Desert Storm. When the remaining aircraft were returning I was out at the approach end of EOR leading our decontamination inspection team. Several of the guys on the flightline had already been told that two wouldn't be coming back, but being as remote as we were at EOR we hadn't heard. I'd made it a habit to count each of the aircraft as it touched down after each mission, and I can remember turning to one of the guys and saying, "they're not all here. Two jets are missing…” When the rest of the aircraft turned short, bypassing decon, and heading straight for the ramp we knew that something was seriously wrong. We raced for the ramp ourselves only to find out the awful truth. It was like being kicked in the gut.

Still pretty much in shock, four or five of us walked up to our Wing Commander, Col. ‘Jed’ Nelson, as he walked out of debrief and although I'm sure that he had a hundred more important things to do, he patiently explained what had happened. Mike Roberts, whose son would be born in the next few weeks, went down over Baghdad and was feared lost, and Jeff Tice was down in the desert between Baghdad and the Saudi border. Within the hour, we’d all seen the HUD tape and at dinner that night I sat at the next table from Bill Hinchey, who had launched Tico out that day. I know that I felt as bad as he looked, and knowing Bill, I know that he felt a lot worse. Very thankfully, after the war, we got both of our guys back.

A couple of years previously at MacDill, we lost a pilot during night refueling ops out over the Gulf of Mexico. He was just there one minute, and in the next, he was gone. It was the first time that most of us young Airman had experienced such a loss. One of our few ‘old timers’ on the ramp (he had to have been thirty or more…) told us that when he was a ‘two-striper’ he was launching out a demo A-10 in England. After strapping the pilot in and saluting him as he taxied away, he stood with the rest of the crew and the pilot’s wife, only to see him clip a wingtip on takeoff and die on the runway. He said that for a long time he didn’t even want to continue - but he did. After I left the Air Force I had the privilege to know the late Bob Morgan, pilot of the Memphis Belle. He said that he hated have to check the board after each mission to find out which friends hadn’t come home. But just as the crew chief did, he strapped back in and kept going.

I was worried about what I’d see in our pilots the day after Tico and Cujo went down. In the end, I didn’t have to be, despite what they’d been through in the past 24 hours. As each pilot walked out of the Ops doorway on the way to their awaiting jets, they touched the top of the doorframe – on which hung a hand painted sign that read “God Bless Mr. (as Cujo was called) and Tico.”

Just a couple of years ago I lost one of my best friends in a crash. Tom ‘Sharkbait’ Delashaw had been flying fighters for over forty years and when he went down, I was ready to walk away from aviation. It had been just too many friends over the years to be worth it. Several months later I found myself once again back at an airshow and as I watched the Demo Viper taxi out, I finally the lesson that the ‘old’ crew chief at MacDill, Colonel Nelson, and Colonel Morgan had tried to teach me. I could see Tom smiling from the cockpit, the way he always did when he left chocks.

The reason that we go on, even when it’s difficult to do so, isn’t in spite of the tragedies, in a way it’s because of them. It’s our duty to carry on. To remember, and carry on for those who are no longer able to.

Both four year old 'little Mike' and I had the privilege of meeting LCDR Davis at Oceana last fall and the opportunity to speak with him for quite a while. I'm glad that on Friday I decided not to go down to Beaufort for the weekend, just as I am glad that the morning of Niagara Falls in '85 we also decided not to go, but military aviation, and aviation in general is a dangerous business. While the 'highs' are very high, the tragedies and 'lows' are very, very low, but they will always be there.

Rest in peace, Kevin 'Kojak' Davis, Mike VandenBos, Brison 'Moose' Phillips, and all of the rest who I've had the privledge to know - and who are no longer with us. As long as we remember you, it's still you we see when we look skyward.

Mike Kopack

Elite 1K Joined: May 26, 2005 - 08:39 PM Posts: 1496

Gums wrote:

Analysis:

pilot error, odds 100 to 1. You can quote me, but I am hoping I am wrong.

Poor setup for the rejoin and tried very hard not to overshoot.

Many gees in a hurry and 1) either mushed in, or 2) G-LOC.

I vote for G-LOC. If I could see his HUD tape, I could call it, as the gees would be decreasing very rapidly until impact.

If a "mush", then gees would be pretty high, and the guy was still thinking he could "make it".

Looks like Gums called it:

Pilot Error Cited in Blue Angel Crash
http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,159967,00.html

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM Posts: 760

GLOC & spatial disorientation
I concur with what apparently/allegedly are the official findings.

Forum: Mishaps

U.S. Navy "Blue Angels" jet crashes