Forum: Air Power

Viperalltheway wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but those F-16s were not CCIPs, had no APG-68 V(9), MIDS, AIM-9X, HMCS, probably could not use AMRAAMs, etc..

Why TF would all these systems have been developped if the viper could beat the crap out of anything without??

yes they already got the HMCS.
They also didnt simulate the real characteristics of their missiles but had fixed missile range values on both sides so the ability of the Viper to carry AMRAAMs and -9Xs was not really crutial during the exercise. hope I explained it in a right way.

F-16.net Sponsor

Viperalltheway wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but those F-16s were not CCIPs, had no APG-68 V(9), MIDS, AIM-9X, HMCS, probably could not use AMRAAMs, etc..

Why TF would all these systems have been developped if the viper could beat the crap out of anything without??

Your claims are devoid of both truth and credibility Rolling Eyes

Forum Veteran Joined: Apr 16, 2005 - 03:16 PM Posts: 800

From what I've read the F-16s that were sent didn't have AIM-9X capability. So the results WVR are screwed up..

BVR, if the ROE were the same as last year, the -16s were not able to use AMRAAMs, so it doesn't mean anything either.

So again I repeat, what were the systems/weapons carried by those F-16s, and what were the ROEs?

Forum Veteran Joined: Apr 16, 2005 - 03:16 PM Posts: 800

HazF16 wrote:

Viperalltheway wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but those F-16s were not CCIPs, had no APG-68 V(9), MIDS, AIM-9X, HMCS, probably could not use AMRAAMs, etc..

Why TF would all these systems have been developped if the viper could beat the crap out of anything without??

yes they already got the HMCS.
They also didnt simulate the real characteristics of their missiles but had fixed missile range values on both sides so the ability of the Viper to carry AMRAAMs and -9Xs was not really crutial during the exercise. hope I explained it in a right way.

So it means that they didn't really use the AIM-9X and AIM-120 to their real potential..

An F-16 with AIM-120C7 should have the first shot on an R-77 or MICA armed aircraft. And WVR the 9X can be fired of boresight at 90 degrees, which theoretically gives it the edge also..

If the viper gets the first shot AND WITH A HIGHER PK MISSILE, guess what happens..

jatt wrote:

how capable do you think this passive detection thing is.

I have read no information on passive being used during the exercise. Concerning infra-red search & tracking (IRST), it is not as good as radar and can be interferred with more easily. IRST is greatly affected by moisture in the air.
So you can be flying along an and be able to detect an aircraft (in clear air) at fifty miles. A little later the air in between you and the potential target has much higher humidity your detection range will be reduced and you have no way of knowing your detection range has been affected. I have hear the IRST on the Rafale can detect a fighter size aircraft at a range of 50mi (80km).
How effective this system in the naval role in some place like the Norwegian Sea, I don't know it could be interesting.

jatt wrote:

Too bad i'm Canadian and i'll be driving a Leo instead.

Hey, your military commitment can be filled out side your country. I have known a couple Canadians who have served as US Marines, check it out.

HazF16 wrote:

They also didnt simulate the real characteristics of their missiles but had fixed missile range values on both sides

The old generic missile trick again, hmmmm. I hope they used the Air Combat Maneuvering Instrumentation (ACMI) this time. In 2004, the USAF flew F-15's over 5,000 miles to India to fly in an exercise where a PC was used to validate if a kill was valid or not. Now, the Indian Air Force (InAF) has an ACMI system supplied by EHUD of Israel which has a production license from the Cubic Corp. of the USA. If certainty was desired it could have been obtained.

Adrian

The RAF recently had an excersise with the IAF in India.

When the RAF had Awacs support the RAF kicked there asses in in BVR with there old ADV Tornados.

The Indians were obviously better in the dogfight arena.

Next year the IAF comes to the UK to take on our Typhoons.

They will get there asses kicked in BVR and WVR.

JWred wrote:

The RAF recently had an excersise with the IAF in India.

I hadn't heard about that.

JWred wrote:

When the RAF had Awacs support the RAF kicked there asses in in BVR with there old ADV Tornados.

I had a late friend "Art", who was in one of the first classes of F-14A pilots who did not transition from the F-4 Phantom 2. He told me that while the F-14A could totally out perform the Pan Avia Tornado, the Tornado community had some great tacticians who had developed a great set of tactics that made the Tornado a credible threat to any fighter at that time. They could move and avoid a WVR fight and they were very good in the BVR.

JWred wrote:

The Indians were obviously better in the dogfight arena.
Next year the IAF comes to the UK to take on our Typhoons.
They will get there asses kicked in BVR and WVR.

The Russians are still designing aircraft as though they are manufacturing these new aircraft in numbers of thousands. The reality is these new fighters are being built in the hundreds. [The Su-27's total number of aircraft manufactured past the F-14 after the F-14 was being retired! All variants of the Su-27 has a total number that is still less than for the F-15. The total number of MiG-29's and Su-27's (all variants) is less than half the total number of F-16's!]
Russian still looks to the furball to win aerial battles. That is what is driving their efforts towards supmaneuverability.
I don't know if they still use this tactic but, I know at one time part of their aircombat plan was to use MiG-21's and 23's in large numbers to tie up or occupy Western fighters. Then bring in the MiG.-29's and Su-27's at higher speed, altitudes and, use their greater energy to prevail over Western fighters.
Their philosphy gets back to something discovered in testing shortly before AIMVAL/ACEVAL, that in 1V1 combat between an F-15A and a F-5, the F-15A won 64:0. In 2V2 the F-5 got a few kills and the kill ratio continued to go down as the number of aircraft participating increases. By the time the total number of aircraft is 32V32, the kill ratio is down to 2:1 F-15's favor!!! The unseen shooter making most of the kills.

Adrian

Forum: Air Power

Cope India 2005