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elp
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Posted: Mar 03, 2004 - 08:26 PM
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Fort Worth Star-Telegram
March 2, 2004
Much Is Riding On Fixes To Lockheed's Fighters
Weight worries push back F-35's first flight from late 2005 to no earlier than spring 2006
By Bob Cox, Star-Telegram Staff Writer
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The F-35 joint strike fighter won't make its first flight in 2005 after all, Pentagon and Lockheed Martin officials concede, and a major rewrite of the program's timetable may be announced soon.
Months of work have failed to trim hundreds of unwanted pounds from the simplest of the three F-35 versions. So Pentagon officials have decided that more time is needed to solve the design challenges.
Lockheed spokesman John Kent confirmed Monday that the first flight of the F-35, which was to have occurred late in 2005, will not happen before spring 2006.
"A lot of that is the weight problems we're working with," Kent said.
In October 2001, when the team of Lockheed, Northrop Grumman and BAE Systems was awarded $19 billion to develop the F-35, Pentagon weapons chief E.C. "Pete" Aldridge expressed confidence that the first flight would occur by late 2005.
But the teams of engineers are having problems designing a family of aircraft to carry out three very different missions.
For nearly a year, Lockheed and its partners have been struggling to trim the weight of the aircraft to desired levels. An overweight aircraft is less maneuverable, has a shorter range and can carry less payload.
That means that the aircraft can't perform combat missions as well as expected.
The first flight isn't the only important milestone being delayed. A crucial design review scheduled for April, which was expected to result in approval of the majority of the aircraft's design work and decisions to begin building more parts and components, has been pushed back until spring 2005.
F-35 program spokeswoman Kathy Crawford said there will be an evaluation of how else aircraft weight can be reduced.
The development delays mean that fewer parts for prototype aircraft have been released for manufacturing, both in-house and by subcontractors, than originally planned, Kent said. "We're scrutinizing parts in more detail than before," looking for weight savings.
Lockheed, Northrop, BAE and key subcontractors employ more than 6,000 engineers and technicians, about 3,400 of them in Fort Worth, for the design work.
The Pentagon has said it expects to buy 2,600 F-35s over the next two decades, and many other countries are expected to order versions of the aircraft to replace their fighters. Britain has committed to buy at least 150.
Analysts say the JSF program still has solid support, both internally and politically, and is in no grave danger of being canceled. But schedule delays drive up the program's price.
In January, the Pentagon's budget office delayed by a year plans to buy the first F-35s and cut planned purchases for several years afterward to save $5 billion. The money was plugged into the development effort, which officials have said is about $7.5 billion over its original $33 billion budget.
Air Force Gen. Jack Hudson, the program director, is briefing senior Pentagon officials and leaders of the Air Force, Navy and Marines on the issues and discussing alternatives, Crawford said.
Options for restructuring the program include focusing on the Air Force's version of the F-35 first and putting off the Marine version, the most difficult, until later, Crawford said.
Engineers estimate that the Air Force version, the furthest along in the design process and the simplest to produce, is about 8 percent above its desired weight of 29,000 pounds, according to Lockheed spokesman Kent.
The other two versions are similarly overweight. The added weight means that the short-takeoff-and-vertical-landing version for the Marines, if built today, might not be able to fly as far as desired with a full load of fuel and weapons, according to Inside the Air Force, a defense newsletter.
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Posted: May 19, 2013 - 7:36 PM
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habu2
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Posted: Mar 04, 2004 - 04:21 AM
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Elite 2K

Joined: Sep 05, 2003 - 09:36 PM
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Hate to say it but, of the last three jets GD/Lockheed has designed (prior to JSF), weight has killed two of them - F-111B and A-12 (ATA). Anyone care to guess which one didn't get canned?  |
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Wildcat
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Posted: Mar 04, 2004 - 12:51 PM
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I wonder if these overweight problems are really a great matter: can you really mention an ambitious fighter program that did not encounter this kind of problem? I mean that this is no surprise.
Seeing no such problems on the F-35 is what would have surprised me instead.
However, this sentence might be the start of a true problem, as the Marines seem to be the ones who need their F-35s most:
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Options for restructuring the program include focusing on the Air Force's version of the F-35 first and putting off the Marine version, the most difficult, until later, Crawford said.
What does really mean "until later"? |
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Phoenix
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Posted: Mar 05, 2004 - 05:51 PM
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By until later, I guess they mean until they figure out a way to reduce some weight on the AF version, whose airframe is similar in size and shape to that of the AF (actually, they're the same size and shape), see if they can apply those measures to the Marines version and/or come up with a more powerful (!!!) engine.
Until then, I guess the USMC and Royal Navy will just have to make do with what they've got. |
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elp
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Posted: Mar 05, 2004 - 06:26 PM
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F-16.net Editor

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Gosh they have power coming out their ears on that engine. Its so fun watching a contractor scramble after they win a bid.
Major wing/airframe stress fractures and wear after flying only a 1000 hrs. ..... Yeah but we saved weight.
Don't make me send Gums and J.R. down there to kick some butt and get to the bottom of this problem. I want it solved yesterday.
Save weight: Take the vertical stabs off of the thing and let the flight control computer figure out how to fly it.  |
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Lawman
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Posted: Mar 05, 2004 - 06:58 PM
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It really bothers me that the service that needs the plane the least is the one they go forward on first. How many other Aircraft can the Airforce task to fill this aircrafts mission. How much longer will those planes go compaired to the almost expired Harrier and Hornet C/D programs which neither of which are in production anymore.
Harrier is topped out, no more room for advancement, no more production aircraft to switch too when these run out of life. And the worst part is the Marines saw this comming when the F-35 won the contest. All threw its testing the Lockheed aircraft has been too heavy for the Marines, but since nobody was willing to conceed on the F-32 which despite the small problems with its VSTOL model was for the Marines a better plane, they got screwed. Almost like the Air Force is putting the Marines in a position where they cant effectively demonstrate there Air Power just so they can argue the budget would be better spent on them.... Ohh wait did I say that outloud  |
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elp
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Posted: Mar 05, 2004 - 08:01 PM
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Joined: Sep 23, 2003 - 09:08 PM
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Well. The problems of the Corps. are always funding and that lies in the hands of the Navy. A quick fix. And this would cause trouble with the USN because they have every furture airframe attached to a squadron down the road. Would be to immediately divert a squadron worth of F-18Fs and get them in the hands of the USMC yesterday quick. You have already seen enough of my annoying comments on the SH but this thing would be great for the USMC. I know some USMC flyers that are working their butt off doing dumb iron and M77 practice etc doing diligent training in CAS. I would LOVE to see these guys get a Squadron of F-18F's. This thing can do all weather bombing and force multiply the USMC G-FAC like you wouldn't believe. Lousy weather over the target that G-FAC needs? So what. It is going to be dead, Dead, DEAD. Also for other things i.e. when destroying an enemy fighting division before they even make contact with our troops. This jet is powerful with nothing more than drop tanks on it to keep it in the air for a few extra hours. Proved by the USN in OIF ( kinda like a fast FAC ), one jet like this lines up targets with it's excellent sensors and hands them off to incoming bomb trucks ( older F-18s with JDAMs and LGBs etc. ) the endless train of bomb trucks show up get their target from the F-18F and drop their weapons and head home. After a while, there is no enemy fighting division that resembles a unit. A day or two of this and it is over except the mop up.
It would be worth it big time for the minor trouble it would cause ( upseting the USN F-18 Super Hornet assignment road map. ) To redirect a squadron of F-18E/Fs into the hands of the USMC. Now. Not years from now. Their excellent dumb weapon CAS skill combined with a new massive PGM ability would make them into amazing killers. Give them a couple acres worth of WCMD ( CBU-105 ), JDAMs, SDBs, JSOW, GBU-12's etc., Dumb iron, M77, along with a new squadron of F-18E/Fs and you would have the best CAS unit bar none. Ultimately I would like to see one USMC squadron of F-18F on every carrier that goes into a hot zone. Need to get on a letter writing campaign.  |
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Lawman
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Posted: Mar 05, 2004 - 09:40 PM
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Corps passed up the S/H on the ground of funding that they needed two other aircraft over it. Those being the Osprey and the JSF.
You could divert the planes, but its the pilots that would take time. Yeah getting the F into the Corps wouldnt be too hard to swing, but putting drivers from some of the VMFA(AW) squadrons would be all but impossible for the simple matter that there is almost no shortness for demand on those squadrons. And with the Marines taking over security in Iraq in the next few months, they will be taking there Air with them. Plus there is operation Sea Lord to plan for so there goes the East Coast squadrons. |
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elp
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Posted: Mar 06, 2004 - 09:07 AM
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F-16.net Editor

Joined: Sep 23, 2003 - 09:08 PM
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Oh well. Makes a nice dream. Marine Air is awesome.
One of the guys told me that because Navy C's had so many hours on them from high ops tempo over the years, that USN was cherry picking low hour Hornets from the USMC to trade out. |
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stmok
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Posted: Mar 07, 2004 - 08:01 AM
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Hmmm, this story explains why the Australian Govt is now worried.
Australia has invested in this program to replace its aging F-111 and F/A-18 Hornets. Critics say that we jumped into this program too early, and if it was to be canned, then Australia will have a problem in looking for another replacement aircraft to fit its requirements. And if it gets further delayed, it would put extra strain on existing aircraft.
I'm just praying it doesn't get canned because of weight issues. |
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Phoenix
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Posted: Mar 07, 2004 - 03:25 PM
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Joined: Sep 11, 2003 - 12:25 PM
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| Well, despite the fact that the Marines need the a/c yesterday, unless they come up with a wonder way of cutting down the STOVL engine's weight, I think it's a better idea they started with the USAF version. After all, it is the simplest version and when you look at it, it's kind of the basic version of the F-35. So when they got the USAF version sorted out, they would have something to start with when working on the USMC version, which is considerably more complicated, rather than having to start from scratch. |
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elp
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Posted: Mar 08, 2004 - 12:50 AM
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Joined: Sep 23, 2003 - 09:08 PM
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| I have been unable to find it. But I remember a quote a few years back by a USMC / Air General saying that the Corps. wasn't married to the absolute need that it needed a jump Combat jet. I'll keep searching to see if I can find that quote and the context of which it was put in. |
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Wildcat
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Posted: Mar 08, 2004 - 10:13 AM
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Well, sure, the Corps does not have an absolute need for a jump jet. They did very good job when they did not have one, but I doubt they are not really frustrated to see their JSF version delayed.
BTW, maybe it is only the outside impression of a foreigner, but I feel that Marine Corps officers usually talk more freely about the USMC doctrine than, say, USAF officers about the USAF doctrine. Am I wrong? |
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elp
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Posted: Mar 08, 2004 - 03:10 PM
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Joined: Sep 23, 2003 - 09:08 PM
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Both about the same. Depends how close to retirement you are  |
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Lawman
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Posted: Mar 11, 2004 - 07:36 PM
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Wildcat wrote:
Well, sure, the Corps does not have an absolute need for a jump jet. They did very good job when they did not have one, but I doubt they are not really frustrated to see their JSF version delayed.
BTW, maybe it is only the outside impression of a foreigner, but I feel that Marine Corps officers usually talk more freely about the USMC doctrine than, say, USAF officers about the USAF doctrine. Am I wrong?
Marine officers will also tell you more about Air Force doctrine then you normally hear. Case in point, my uncle is a Lt. Col working at the pentegon. And he's part of the Future combat development which is looking at battle plans for 15 years from now. Whenever the Air Force is asked to cooperate or join a group working stuff out or have a war game(Navy/Army/Marines) they either send somebody that isnt qualified, or dont send anybody at all. They actually told him, "we dont need to be there" They have a real problem when it comes to cooperating with the other services in planning. Sure they make great speeches infront of congress about how they can perform the missions of Marine Air just as well. But when you look at the rounds of war games such as the planning in case we have to go into Korea, Marines up the west coast, Army up the East. Marine Air comes in and performs the jobs being tasked by officers on the ground. Army has to wait untill "Assets are available to be tasked" meanwhile the Airforce is blowing up every bridge in sight and slowing the advance. Airforce has the equipment and man power to do the job, now they need to pull there heads out of there asses and pay attention to what the other services need. Thats why most Army officers tell Marines, dont ever let them take away your Air.
Also saying the Aircraft isnt neccesary is a really bad way to go about things. Yes they worked it out before without a Harrier, but that means the LHA's and MEU's are going to have to be much more closely tasked with Carrier Battle Groups. There arnt to many of those to go around, and thats one more thing your waiting on when stuff starts getting hot. It also means more ground based Marine Hornets, due to the need for more airsupport. And the Problem there is that the faster the Marines advance the less effective your air becomes when you really really need it. Harrier is the Osprey of 30 years ago. Everybody says they dont need it, but when they see what it has done or will do they realize that it will increase combat capability 10 fold.
Elp, there is also a qoute somewhere by Commandant Krulak speaking about the jump jet, saying its worth 10 of any other aircraft they have. |
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