| Author |
Message |
|
Grounded1971
|
Posted: Aug 14, 2006 - 10:22 PM
|
|
|
Newbie

Joined: Feb 11, 2006 - 08:29 PM
Posts: 15
Status: Offline
|
I've always been curious about this. Plasma stealth technology was often dusted down every so often and waved as some sort of magic charm to scare Western governments into spending on R&D for what became 4+ generation and 5th generation aircraft such as the Gripen, Typhoon, Raptor etc. But how feasible is it as a technology with any military capability?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_stealth
http://www.aeronautics.ru/plasmamain.htm
I suspect that a medium-sized interceptor would probably consume several times its own weight in fuel if it were to expend the levels of energy required to ionise particles on an aircraft's surface but does anyone have a link to a reputable Western source or academic thesis on the subject? |
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Sponsor
|
Posted: May 22, 2013 - 9:46 PM
|
|
|
F-16.net Sponsor
|
|
|
|
 |
|
snypa777
|
Posted: Aug 14, 2006 - 10:54 PM
|
|
|
Elite 1K

Joined: Jul 26, 2005 - 03:00 AM
Posts: 1527
Status: Offline
|
| Science fiction. Probably why there are no reputable sources East or West. Theoretically some aspects may be feasible, in practice, impossible. How do your radar and other sensors fare with all the clutter?? Just one small aspect... |
_________________ "I may not agree with what you say....but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Scorpion1alpha
|
Posted: Aug 15, 2006 - 05:46 AM
|
|
|
F-16.net Moderator

Joined: Oct 21, 2005 - 01:47 AM
Posts: 1375
Status: Offline
|
Only works on the U.S.S. Enterprise.
LIVE LONG AND PROSPER. |
_________________ I'm watching...
|
|
|
|
 |
|
JCSVT
|
Posted: Aug 15, 2006 - 06:05 AM
|
|
|
Enthusiast

Joined: Jul 19, 2006 - 10:39 PM
Posts: 74
Status: Offline
|
|
Scorpion1alpha wrote:
Only works on the U.S.S. Enterprise.
LIVE LONG AND PROSPER.
 |
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
LordOfBunnies
|
Posted: Aug 15, 2006 - 07:12 AM
|
|
|
Forum Veteran

Joined: Jul 21, 2005 - 06:28 AM
Posts: 588
Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Status: Offline
|
Think about it this way. If you make plasma stealth work, how else can you be detected. It's the same thing with active cancellation, you're putting out a signal of some form or other. Plasma stealth makes you very detectable in other spectrums because you're putting out huge energy to create that plasma bubble. Think: radar, cancellation, thrust, plasma, laser, any computer, aircraft skin, they all put out energy of some form.
And that's Klingon and Romulan ships. For the Federation ships, there's the USS Defiant NX-74205. HA I WIN THE GEEK WARS! Ok, I'm done. |
_________________ Peace through superior firepower.
Back as a Student, it's a long story.
|
|
|
|
 |
|
shocktroop
|
Posted: Aug 15, 2006 - 10:12 AM
|
|
|
Active Member

Joined: May 22, 2005 - 01:25 PM
Posts: 170
Status: Offline
|
From http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread89869/pg1
Quote:
The Basics: Plasma Stealth theory
There are 3 ways that plasma stealth functions.
1. Plasma aids in the absorption of the radar signals. This occurs when electromagnetic waves (radar) encounter charged particles causing the wave's energy to be transferred to the charged particles, thus no reflection back to the radar source.
2. Electromagnetic waves have a tendency to bend around the plasma field thus passing around the aircraft. Most aerospace radar specialists will tell you that this effect is at best minimal in decreasing Radar Cross Section (RCS).
3. Plasma can disturb electromagnetic waves to the point of transforming them to differing frequencies scattered all across the RF spectrum, rendering the electromagnetic waves that encounter the plasma virtually useless.
Background: The 1999 ITAR-TASS Claim
In January of 1999 Nicolai Novichkov of ITAR-TASS conducted an interview with Anatoliy Korteev, the director of the Russian Scientific Academy. In this interview it was revealed that Russian scientists had made significant strides in stealth techniques involving plasma. The Russian scientist outlined his perspective on the differences between the American and Russian approach to stealth. These differences being that American stealth is based on Radar Absorbent Material (RAM) and Radar Absorbent Structure (RAS)... This process as scientist Anatoliy Korteev stated is expensive to develop as well as to deploy and takes away from the overall manueverability of the airframe.
The article went on to discuss the method in which the plasma would protect the airframe from being observed by radar;
"If an object is surrounded by a cloud of plasma, several phenomenas are observed when the cloud interacts with electromagnetic waves radiated by enemy radar..."
For clarification, this article stated that the entire airframe of the plane would have to be engulfed in the plasma cloud in order for this stealth technique to be effective.
And finally the article states that the technology was already in it's 3rd generation, the device supposedly weighed approximately 100 kilograms, required only a "few tens of kilowatts" of power, and the development of the 3rd generation system had allowed clearance of the 1st and 2nd generation versions for export.
(Link to TASS article transcript)
Russian Plasma Stealth: How would it work?
Exactly how the Russian plasma stealth generator touted by TASS in 1999 would work is still undisclosed.
There are a variety of possibilities of how it could have operated, including the following:
1. An electromagnetic field is generated - the downside however, is that such a field would be detectable by electronic sensors.
2. A corona source that continuous breaks down or a pulsing tesla coil - again however, this would produce an EM field and thus be detectable.
3. A plasma laser firing out in front of the aircraft.
A common problem with each of these possibilities is that they require a lot of space, are heavy and consume a large amount of power.
Ok, enough of the 1999 claim - Let's move forward to 2003...
Russian Plasma Stealth: Questions from experts...
Investigating the subject of Russian plasma stealth as stated in the 1999 TASS article elicited many skeptical responses from the physicists, aerospace engineers and military specialists whom I interviewed.
As stated in the introduction of this article, it is not out of nationalistic American pride that these experts in the field question the validity of the Russian claim, nor is it closed mindedness of the technology itself (which is very viable)... it's the methodologies by which the Russian researchers claim to accomplish this.
* One specialist in the area of military arms sales for a US intelligence agency pointed out that it was 5 1/2 years ago in January 1999 that the Tass News Agency's article announced this technology was to be exported and as of yet there is no such product for sale on the world's arms markets.
* An aerospace engineer for a leading US fighter manufacturer questioned how this ionized gas envelope would interact with the airflow over the control surfaces at flight speed. Also he wondered if sharp, angled manuevering would shear off the ionization thus exposing the aircraft to enemy radar.
* A physicist from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory had questions about how the aircraft's onboard systems would interact with a surrounding plasma field. For instance in order for the plasma field to be effective it would have to to be so powerful that the aircraft itself would have to be shielded from it's own stealth system. Would this mean that they would have to employ something similar to a Faraday cage? If so, then how much would this additional weight negatively affect the performance and manueverability of a fighter aircraft?
* A plasma physicist working on a DoD project pondered how the Russian researchers handled the issue of photon emissions - visual glowing from plasma sources can be tracked using CCD sensors. Additional she stated that an ion field is detectable and it would seem that plasma stealth would likewise be detectable... she was also quick to point out that anything that is detectable can be shot down.
The State of Russian Plasma Stealth today: There is no Russian Plasma Cloud Stealth
In 2003 the Institute for Theoretical and Applied Electromagnetics (ITAE) at the Russian Academy of Sciences in Moscow flight tested a "plasma-controlled screen" for the Su-35's remarkably large 0.889 meter radar dish... (which shows up like sore thumb on an air defense radar).
This "plasma screen" is mounted in front of the radar dish and behind the nose-cone of the fighter jet. It is supposedly similar to a plasma TV screen made up of cells or rastars filled with neon, xenon or some other inert gas which is excited by an electrical current, and when there is no current going to the unit it is completely transparent to the Su-35's radar.
In demonstration videos this Plasma Controlled Screen is seen as a luminous panel in front of the dish. It is said to absorb some of the opponent's radar signal, scattering much of the remainder in all different directions while at the same time transforming the scattered signals to frequencies all over the RF spectrum.
Word from the ITAE is that they have not developed a system for a whole airframe like the 1999 claim in Tass, which would use plasma-generating antennas to ionize the air flowing over the aircraft ? in fact, ITAE researchers expressed the view that application of the 1999 stealth method would be nearly impossible unless applied to a high-altitude, relatively slow aircraft, this is because the airstream would dissipate the plasma faster than it could be generated. (Janes Defense Weekly, 2003 - {Original not available online} - Transcript of original article)
So there it is, the same group of scientists (ITAE) who in 1999 stated via ITAR-TASS news agency that they had a 100kg plasma stealth unit in it's 3rd generation, 4 years later tell Bill Sweetman of Janes Defense Weekly the system was problematic due to the dissipation of the plasma field was too rapid for a fast flying fighter aircraft.
The ITAE scientist now have a much more practical system which is greeted with absolutely no skepticism from military and academic R&D specialists in the US and Great Britain.
US Stealth: Is Plasma a Consideration?
I have seen posts here on ATS and around the internet where people have anxiously expressed a concern that the US is not embracing this technology.
Although there is certainly a difference in the schools of thought surrounding stealth between Russia and the US, it is apparent both countries have dabbled in the other's stealthy techniques.
The Russians for instance are incorporating radar absorbing composites (RAM) as well as limited radar deflecting structural design (RAS) into their newest fighter designs... and then there is the Russian Tu-180, a flying wing bomber similar to the B-2 which a spokesman for Tupolev claims was flying before the US's B-2.
But what of US interest in plasma stealth?
We know the research is there...
In a 1998 article entitled "Are Plasmas Already Out There?", Janes Defense Weekly makes the suggestion that the US has plasma stealth technology already and that it may go hand in hand with electrostatic technology that decreases drag on aircraft.
Jan es Defense Weekly, on June 17, 1998 - page 8
Janes also referred to a 1968 "Aviation Week" article which said the US had been researching the phenomenon related to plasma and aeronautics - this was a non-specific reference to Northrop's 1968 tech paper titled "Electroaerodynamics in Supersonic Flow".
What is known about American military research on plasma stealth seems to revolve around cold-plasma projects. Rob Barker, Program Manager for plasma research at the USAF's Scientific Research Office in Virginia has been funding low-temperature plasma research by a specialist named Dr. Mounir Laroussi since 1996.
These current US Military/USAF research projects concerning ?cold plasma? (most of which are classified) involve concepts using the air temperature ionized gas as; 1. a decontaminant for biological warfare, 2. protective shielding around sensitive electronic devices, 3. shielding from direct energy weapons (specifically microwave weapons) and as 4. a radar absorbing stealth technique.
Concluding Thoughts:
While writing this post, I interviewed some pretty impressive individuals in their respective fields, some of whom I really did not think I would get an audience with at all. I also had a rare opportunity to speak with an aerospace engineer for the Russian Aircraft Corporation (MiG) who was here in the US with a group touring a few major American aerospace companies.
The engineer from Russia did not consider the technology of a plasma cloud surrounding an aircraft to be ready to exit R&D and go into deployment for many years to come - and suggested that there are more expedient methods, not nearly as radical nor as potentially stealthy but are closer to deployment.
He had some interesting things to say - some of which included his compelling and well thought-out belief that the US also has plasma stealth... but that is for another post.
I will end this post with a quote by this Russian engineer named Vladimir...
"In Russia we are realists... we develop air defense that we hope can see a B-2, F-117 or F-22 in time to get off a shot, but there are many unknowns concerning these aircraft, including the F-117 simply because it has been upgraded since one was shot down over the Balkans, so we don't rest - we keep on improving.
"I tell you this not as one who is marketing a product, but as one who considers that his country's survival rests on it's ability to counter the US's capabilities... particularly in a technical sense. Again I stress not to counter the US... just it's capabilities. We Russians do not consider the US an enemy, but it would be irresponsible on our part to not be vigilant with the convolluted geopolitics in today's world."
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Grounded1971
|
Posted: Aug 16, 2006 - 12:28 AM
|
|
|
Newbie

Joined: Feb 11, 2006 - 08:29 PM
Posts: 15
Status: Offline
|
| I had a feeling it was more a funding tool than anything technologically viable for fighter aircraft (if at all) but that's one interesting link on the subject. Thanks. |
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
ATFS_Crash
|
Posted: Jan 04, 2007 - 07:17 AM
|
|
|
Forum Veteran

Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM
Posts: 760
|
Plasma stealth already has some applications but to completely obliterate a fighter is in my opinion impractical at least at this point a time. Much my post on this thread is my opinion.
“Plasma stealth” almost seems to be a contradiction in terms. Plasma has emissions, if have any substantial emissions, you can be detected. There are several ways of generating plasma, but all have their drawbacks.
The amount of power used to generate it would drain your fuel tanks very fast, is would also expose the pilot to harmful emissions, plasma emissions can be detected from hundreds of miles away, you wouldn’t be able to use radio, compass, navigation, or radar or IR to see where you are going, and you literally and figuratively wouldn’t be able too see where you going.
Plasma works well on some antennas because most have a lower surface area and width so they have low IR signatures. To transmit you have to turn the field off to the plasma, which really doesn’t mater much because if you are transmitting your not stealth anyway. And the plasma energy generated by some antennas is directional, so less likely to be detected by an enemy.
I love Russians that claim they have they recently discovered and invented plasma & plasma stealth. They never heard of a plasma TV. Their moms must hide the matches to keep them from unleashing plasma weapons (burning down the house). Do not get me wrong; I realize it's only a very small minority of Russians that are making these claims.
The US worked with plasma stealth back in 50 or 60, so it is hardly new. Of course it has drawbacks that make it impractical to put on whole fighter aircraft. One version used radioactive elements to produce the plasma. The plasma itself in its energy, the nuclear version was detectable with radiation equipment, and even more contradiction of stealthy. Though it would be difficult to detect on regular or radar, but it would be very easy to detect using other methods. Of course the radiation would be harmful to the aircraft, pilot, and possibly the electronics, as well as the environment. [Sarcasm] I wonder why the US never proceeded with the idea? [/Sarcasm]
The US is still playing with safer versions of plasma stealth, but I think it is on a small-scale and I think it's still far from practical.
For many technical reasons plasma stealth doesn’t seem practical to use on entire aircraft. I doubt it will be practical for a long time IF ever. I would keep funding R&D, but I would limit the funding until it seems more practical. Until then I would keep most funding on real proven stealth aircraft. Evidently the Russians feel the same way that would explain why they are looking for foreign investors and wont keep investing their own money in plasma stealth. It also explains why they later started considering building and aircraft similar to the F-22.
One method of generating plasma is very high speed. Dogfights typically don’t occur supersonically anyway. If you are flying faster then the speed of sound, you generate a sonic boom, hence you are not stealthy. The shockwave can even be detected and tracked on radar; I think the Russians even did this with the SR-71 (I know US civilians did). The SR-71 was an early stealth aircraft, it use shapes, and materials to reduce the RCS. In addition the SR-71 sometimes generated kinetic plasma stealth as a byproduct that did reduce the RCS of the aircraft, but the emissions from the plasma once again made the SR-71 easy to detect using other method. 1000-2000 K (1340 – 3140 F) on a surface as large as a fighter is not stealthy. We could easily detect that from well over 100 miles in the 1960s with IR. Kinetic plasma stealth might have some use on a scram jet bomber, but it still is detectable because it is emitting energy, is just harder to detect on conventional radar. Kinetic plasma pretty much happens on its own, it is no feat of science. ICBMs entering the Earth's atmosphere generate plasma, sure you are not going to be able to detect it on conventional radar, but once again, it is spewing all kinds of emissions that make it easy to detect by other means.
I think most of the Russians claims of plasma stealth is hype. In addition many people do not understand plasma stealth and its limitations, some do not even seem to realize what plasma is. A lot of people's misconceptions about plasma stealth is a lot like the misconceptions of regular stealth. Neither make the aircraft invisible on radar, it merely makes them harder to detect and delays detection and identification when used properly under the right conditions. Plasma stealth is not like people's imaginations of Romulan cloaking devices, even most Star Trek nuts know that the Romulan cloaking devices had weaknesses. There are gaps between the facts and the misconceptions and fantasies. However plasma stealth seems to be just a possibility, conventional stealth is proven and practical.
The sites that claim plasma stealth is ready to be produced and fielded are generally pretty nutty. One of the sites that you had listed claims a B-2 (88-0329 Spirit of Missouri) was shot by a SAM down in Surcin Serbia on 5-20-99 (they claim two other B-2s crashed the same day). One of the sites claims the Russians shot down the space shuttle Columbia was shot down with EM weapons and that the submarine Thrasher was sunk with EM weapons by the Russians. I think there is even a US Lt. Col. that claims it is true. I have laughed at these claims, seriously thought about them, and laughed even more. I am under the impression that the Spirit of St. Louis has flown at several air shows since its alleged crash and capture. I do not know if they still have all these claims posted. So we are supposed to believe that the US lost three B-2s which is over $3 billion in hostile territory in, yet the US government has managed to keep it a secret.
I think the wild plasma stealth claims are just a con to get foreigners to invest into this so-called Russian plasma stealth R&D program. I think the nuts have crawled out of the woodwork and have ran with the idea with their own paranoid delusions of grandeur.
I apparently you got the whiff of bovine, judging by your question mark. hehe.
Soviets Shot down the space shuttle Columbia and sank the USS thrasher with EM weapons.
Flight 800 was shot down with EM weapons.
Good laugh, to me. |
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|
|