Forum: Air Power

(1) http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... ellation_3

(2) http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=s ... anche_dc_6

Speaking from outside USA (from Australia), this was one heck of a stealth recon/attack chopper. I was amazed what it could do when I saw it on the Discovery Channel.

Heck, my friend's uncle worked on the software for its FLIR sensors...I really don't understand why it would be canned. All that money and effort spent...For what? (I'm pissed off!) So it can be canned even before production!

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To tell you the truth, I can't say I'm surprised. It IS, however, very unfortunate. The Army had been counting on this chopper for a long time, just about as long as the Air Force had been counting on the ATF (F/A-22 Raptor) program. However, something has to be said for a chopper that is invisible to radar, but is relatively defenseless against some armed peasant carrying an RPG. We learned this lesson the hard way in Vietnam, against the Viet Cong forces. This same lesson was reinforced by the Afghani rebels against Soviet Mi-24s. Grenada, Panama, several times in the Middle East, Somalia, and many other places prove that choppers just can't defend themselves very well against one man on the ground, who pops out of the bush (or from under a rock) with a small weapon. Hopefully, this cancellation will be temporary (think of the B-1.) Maybe, they can go back to the drawing board, figure out where they went wrong, and come back in a couple years with something better. They'll make the chopper an offer the Army can't refuse. I know you probably don't want to hear this, but at least til then, the Apaches, and the newer Cobras of the USMC will be good stopgaps.

Army Aviation needs serious leadership and personel culture fixes that a new chopper won't fix. Case in point the charge of the light brigade in Iraq that got a whole bunch of Apaches shot up because of poor mission planning / thought process. Leadership and personel fixes. Also based on two kinda recent mishaps I had to take photos for involving Army Aviation, I am of the opinion they need more stick time and better training. Certainly in one case better IFR / Weather mission planning/thinking.

Fortunately there are many sensor platforms out there and they are growing. Global Hawk, other UAVs of all flavors, U2 and JSTARS just to name a few. Saw a great unclas public briefing over at JSTARS recently. An AH-64 had target cueing pumped into the aircrew display by JSTARS long before the AH-64 got there. When it showed up ( and was allowed to approach the target to its advantage based on the off board sensor feed ) it was ready to fire on some enemy vehicles. That is great use of the Apache. NOT some idiotic charge into AAA. I hope the Charge of the Light Brigade commander was FIRED.

I'll find out tomorrow - the -66 sim team is on the same floor as me at work.

Flipping channels and watched a bit of the cancellation briefing at the Pentagon on CSPAN.

That whole charge of the Light Brigade has to do with the way the Army uses its choppers. They sit stationary using the theory of terrain masking. The Apache is a missile truck, and without something to mask around the aircraft is now a sitting duck.

The Other gunships in theatre were the Marine Cobras. The Marines train they're pilots to never stop moving, even when they are tasked over an area they dont hover they orbit at high speed. And for those of you that are going to bring up the Choppers being differnt, your right, the new Zulu is superior to the Longbow. Same radar and avionics, more weapons available, much better flight performance, much smaller forward cross section (i.e. Target), and much higher capabilities in mechanically unfriendly enviroments.

I agree, you gotta stay agile, mobile and hostile.

You stand at one place for too long, and you'll get killed or shot down. (It actually applies on those online games, like America's Army.)

So, what exactly (to the best of your knowledge), did the Light Brigade do in Iraq?

I'm curious, as I heard snippets of it on the news, but not what they really did, etc.

I heard about and saw an Apache LongBow on the ground, and a former Iraqi dis-informer saying to the press, a farmer brought it down with his rifle.

The pilot and gunner were captured...A bit young though (I read they were about 20yrs, I was expecting someone in their mid-20s, early 30s...Someone with alot of experience and maturity in the machine. You know, those that have mastered it, knowing everything and handling surprises without thinking. (Athletes call it being "in the zone".)

Well no need for me to confirm the cancellation since it is all over the news wires. The Comanche simulator is (was) being designed and built by the group I work in (Rotorcraft Simulation at Boeing) although I work on the Apache side.

Someone commented the AH-1Z had the same radar as the Apache. I assume they were referring to the D-model Longbow Apache with the mast-mounted radar. Does the AH-1Z have a mast mounted radar? I didn't see one in the picture that was posted, and I don't know much about the Z-model Cobra.

Quote:

I heard about and saw an Apache LongBow on the ground, and a former Iraqi dis-informer saying to the press, a farmer brought it down with his rifle.

I heard that a 'lucky shot' punctured a fuel tank, the Apache ran out of fuel and had to land behind enemy lines. Not defending it as not being 'shot down', just passing along the info I heard.

I do love our Army. But the USMC always appears to have stuff figured out a lot of times and doesn't need to re-invent itself every few years. A great organization. To the Corps! Very Happy

No Habu2 the system isnt going to be mast mounted like the Longbow, mainly because of the lack of needing to mask and unmask, when you come in from the sea its just like fighting over the desert. Thats why the Marines took to sand like a duck to water.

The Commanche, Longbow, and Viper as the new cobra is called are all getting the same avionic sweet and radar system. The Marines just decided to make it hull mounted.

As for the Lightbrigade attack. It was simply the wrong tactics. They went into a high threat inviroment, underestimated the enemys Anti Air abilities and tried to plink tanks at range with the hellfire. However when stuff started comming back at them they had to scramble to get the hell out of there, and since the Army doesnt train to really get shot at..... to qoute Heartbreak ridge "It was a cluster F*ck."

Lawman wrote:

As for the Lightbrigade attack. It was simply the wrong tactics. They went into a high threat inviroment, underestimated the enemys Anti Air abilities and tried to plink tanks at range with the hellfire. However when stuff started comming back at them they had to scramble to get the hell out of there, and since the Army doesnt train to really get shot at..... to qoute Heartbreak ridge "It was a cluster F*ck."

Sounds like some people I know...Its a hard lesson learnt then...

Hehehe, I was watching Heartbreak Ridge on cable TV the other day. Smile

I realize this is almost 7 years since the last post but here's what's happened since.

The Marines weren't interested in Longbow on the AH-1Z. It was too heavy for what they wanted and they felt it would limit operations in hot/high environments (the British Apaches handle carrying Longbow better than ours because they have bigger engines). They also didn't think it gave enough benefit to them, as the AH-1Z'a passive sensors outrange Longbow. For those wondering about how passive sensors would be degraded in rain, yes they would be. However, because Longbow operates in the millimeter wave length, it would be degraded even more.

System-wise Longbow could definitely be integrated with the Zulus advanced interface. Longbow International proposed mounting Longbow on export AH-1Z for those who were interested, and later on Grumman (one of the partners in Longbow International) designed a version on their own. Since due to funding issues, the speed of getting the Zulu into service, and therefore a credible export prospect has been glacial, this is pretty much on the back burner.

I'm attaching a couple of pictures of the concepts.

Wow, how heavy is that pod? Even the painting makes it look like it's tipping over! How do choppers handle with asymetrical loads of that nature?

StolichnayaStrafer wrote:

Wow, how heavy is that pod? Even the painting makes it look like it's tipping over! How do choppers handle with asymetrical loads of that nature?

Under 300 lbs. An easy load for the AH-1Z. You'll see in the drawing the -1Z is also carrying 16 Hellfires. You'll get an asymmetric load on any attack helo as soon as you launch one weapon, but it this case, note that there's an AIM-9 on the opposite wing. The AH-1Z is an awesome machine, and with the 680 rotor is far more agile than people expect.

BTW, the Zulu in the drawing is not tipping over, it's in a right bank. It's very common to depict attack choppers in a bank-- looks more macho.

I know it's just a painting...

still, it just launched a portside Hellfire- it's augering in!!! Shocked

Just kidding, and I have always loved Marine Cobras! Cheers

Forum: Air Power

RAH-66 Comanche gets cancelled?