Forum: F-16 versus XYZ

Bye bye J-10. Against an APG 68 V(9) equipped Block 52 with the latest AMRAAMs, JHMCS and Aim-9X.... Razz

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I'm not impressed when I check the J-10s center of balance vs it's center of pressure, it might not even be pitch unstable regardless of what the Chinese say.

Hi all,

Below, a photo of the cockpit prototype of the J-10 to give an idea about avionics.

Another thing, J-10 will be far superior to JF-17 in terms of avionics, and I've seen the JF-17 radar in action, it is quite good, this same plane could fire the SD-10 BVR missile0.

Twix101 wrote:

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a photo of the cockpit prototype of the J-10 to give an idea about avionics:

A cockpit photo can't give you any idea about the avionics. The cockpit is only the interface between the pilot and the avionics.
You can't tell what radar, EW suite, RWR, computers are on board and what their capabilities are just by looking at the cockpit.

Nice fancy LCD-s, but they are not for target spotting, they only show what sensors see and thats all. If you have some typical Chinese sensors, they are not worth anything. And Chinese can not make avionics like USA can - they can't even match the Russian technology - for what's sake they are paying for Flankers and Foxhounds? If russian avionics is inferior to western, than any other avionics is far-far behind.

What I can see, is pool pilot vision (I hope that guy is sitting on ejection seat. Dashboard is far to high and forward-downward view is pretty poor - like Mig-23 Floggers, where you can only see your noseprobe.

HunterKiller, China never bought Foxhounds (MiG-31).

Ejection seats are dangerouse and dont spen much time in developement aircraft, he's probly sitting on the Chinese equivalent of a milk crate, not uncommon at all.

I think J-10 if I can put it simply will be better than the blk15,40 comparable to blk 50/52 in performance and mission effectiveness and with a better radar can compete with the Blk60 and Israeli F-16I.

The reasons I can provide is the fact that Pakistan is developing the Jf-17 which is comparable to the blk 10/15 in yaw axis manouverability although not in the pitch due to the rd33 (mig 29 engine)with less thrust and with the cool DSI intakes (a rip-off from JSF) . BUt with this performance add the BVR capability that is going to be on this poor mans Viper which makes it pretty decent.

BUt the reason I rate J-10 is that Pakistan for its advanced fighter role has decided to immediately buy around 36 of the J-10. Now Pakistan has Grippen, Rafale and with that new Blk50/52 F-16s available for the slot. Along with the political aspect in this deal Pakistan choose the J-10 with which they seem to be very impressed with now. If you read the comments of PAF ACM( heading the Jf-17 Development and production program for PAF) a few years back when they evaluated the J-10, they clearly indicate that the J-10 had an excellent structure and aerodynamics and the Chinese were progressing very well with the avionics. Now that I suppose they have met the requirements of PAF (which they take very seriously Cool

) it tells you about the confidence in the avionics and the complete system of the J-10. Therefore the J-10 can definitely be compared to the F-16 and may perform better in some flight envelopes and missions. Over all IMHO the J-10 may become far more mission effective than the Viper, but it will take a little time. J-10 is just a new fighter with pretty of time for improvement.

And oh the Ejection seats is not even an issue if Pakistan will buy it surely, it will definitely have Martin baker seats as replaced before in all the previous fighters like F-7, F-7PG, A-5s and even F-5s from China.

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J-10 may become far more mission effective than the Viper

Explain please. Every bit of electronic equipment in the F-16 is already superior to what the Chinese are trying to copy. I'm no HUGE fan of F-16 but I'll give it it's due respect and the only part of the flight regime that the Lavi er J-10 might have a superiority is high AOA at very low speeds. But to me it looks like the canard is to heavily loaded and I'm not at all convinced the J-10 is even pitch unstable. Talk is cheap, the Chinese have yet to prove anything.

Well u do make a reasonable argument about the electronics all I can say is that its just a matter of time. China is incorporating Russian, Israeli and EU technology so fast that in a few years time it will develop very competitive avionics. But as far as the design being unstable is concerned if you dont believe that it is then all I can say is Surprised

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Well u do make a reasonable argument about the electronics all I can say is that its just a matter of time. China is incorporating Russian, Israeli and EU technology so fast that in a few years time it will develop very competitive avionics.

Yeah, but the US and Europe won't sit idle and wait for the chinese to catch up with them.
Say China could reproduce today's technology of the west in 5 years. By that time today's standard will be already surpassed in the west...

Starting with later F-35s American aircraft wont even have what we now consider "avionics", they will simply be com-nodes sharing info from hyperspectral surveilance assets from all over the globe. One of the very few pilots who has flown BOTH the F-22 and F-35 developement aircraft ( and thier simulators ) said that it's no contest between the F-22 and F-35, he'd choose the F-35 for combat due to it's sensor integration. Things are moving SO quickly in this field that simply copying something wont due, you have to be a leader or you'll be wasting your time.

Lets not sway away from the topic. We are comparing the J-10 to the Viper not the F-35 which is in a notch higher. It is a replacement for the Viper but a different class. The role of the j-10 will be that of the Viper, it clearly lacks even the stealth characteristics of the JSF. So its unfair to compare both these aircraft. BUt as far as F-16 is concerned it got upgraded over the years and now it has no more room for improvement else we wouldnt have seen the jsf yet. Chuck yeager stated he would prefer the F-15 over the F-16 anyday as F-16 lacks the room for so much electronics u wuld want for various roles. On the other hand J-10 is new with more room for upgrade and certainly better manuverability. Lets not forget China is developing its own engines and may even use TVC which would give J-10 the edge. BUt then the F-16 can use the AIm-9X with helmet mounted cueing system Laughing

this is just great. Does anyone know if Chinese have developed/copied their own hmcs?

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On the other hand J-10 is new with more room for upgrade and certainly better manuverability

What in the world do you base that speculation on, no-one has any idea what's inside the J-10, the quality of that kit and how large and primative it is or isn't. Very little if any manueverability info for the J-10 ( other than near useless press releases to generate sales ).

saker-hawk wrote:

I think J-10 if I can put it simply will be better than the blk15,40 comparable to blk 50/52 in performance and mission effectiveness and with a better radar can compete with the Blk60 and Israeli F-16I.

Your statement is based on what?

Do you know or do you guess?

If you know, present your sources, not just troll.

All Easten planes were at first "better and more effective" that Western. Remember Mig-21, Mig-29 and so on. But only in theory.

Airforce is complicated issue and sucess does not depend only on aircraft performance, but on who can exploit his performance better.

European avionics was never comparable with American one and will never be, because European countries do not have enough money, even if they co-operate. And this co-operation is hard and unflexible - remember Tornado - first technical requirements were issued in 1965! Planes came operational mid 1980-s!!! Same about Eurofighter. Too many controversary requirements and interest.

So that cooperation with Russia (who is 20 years behind) and some European companies wont help them to dominate in the world. Because what they got is not the most up-to-date and I doubt if Europeans will sell them all their secrets.

Russian/Chinese traning, tactics, support, intel and other issuses are sometimes comparable to post WWII era.

After AIM-9X and JHMCS and its possible new deveopments maneuverability is not first issue anymore. Missiles can any way turn better than manned airplane.

Forum: F-16 versus XYZ

F-16 versus J-10