Forum: Military Aircraft of the Cold War

Mig-21bis (Fishbed N), 6xR-60 missiles, RP-22 Saphire radar, 2x23 mm gun

In russian aviation books are claims, that 21bis has a momentary climb rate about 240 m/sec and continious turn rate about 10 deg/sec

I heard that Fishbed has spectacular roll rate (about 90 deg sec).

How good this is in real dogfight and how chances are against other planes from that area (F-5E, Mirage III, F-4E, Saab Draken)?

Finnish air force has used them for years (only "Western" force, I think).

http://www.saunalahti.fi/fta/mig-21bis2.htm

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Well, the MiG-21bis was the last and, by far, the best of the series. Main improvements over the MF were:
-an overboost system in the engine (Tumanski R-25F-300) which allowed an increase in power from 15.000 pounds to 16500 pounds, only for a limited amount of time (3-5 min.)
-more internal fuel
-better radar (older variants had the RP-21)
-much more precise navigation suite (similar to MiG-23BN)

All Fishbeds are unrecoverable if you get above 90 deg/sec. roll rate, so that's a no-return maximum.

It was faster and had more power than the F-5, Mirage III and Draken
More manouvrable than the Draken
If you put it against the F-4E in WWR, it comes down to pilot skill.
The usual weapon load was one R-13M on outboard pylons and one R-60 on inboard ones - total 4 missiles OR
2xR-60 on double launchers on the outboard pylons and 1 R-13M on the inboard pylons - total 6 missiles

For more details go here: http://www.mig-21.de/english/default.htm

I have heard from ex-Soviet airmen, that early Mig-23M Flogger B was step backward from Fishbed N, no maneuverability, poor vision, lot of technical gremlins and it was better that Fishbed only on paper - due fatique cracks there were G-limits +4,0 and radar performance varied even between machines from same series - one radar showed 5km and other 50 km. So factory warranty crews slept in maintenance hangars. And those all new engines throwed turbine blades - so engine was checked after every flight (imagine how much effort it took).

So they said that last Fishbed was much better machine, because that was fully mature and had lot less troubles.

that is MiG-23 MF Flogger B Wink

You got pretty correct info
The only thing the Flogger had above the 21 was superior speed and thrust.
The cockpit is a bit bigger than on the 21, but visibility is worse.

Max G limits were 8 for the single-seater and 7 for the twin-seater, while the 21 had a G limit of 8.5 - at least that's what I know. Where did you get that figure of 4G max? I figure that's valid for the max takeoff weight.

In maneuvrability terms, the 21 flew circles around the 23.
The technical gremlins were many and some of them never left, not even on the last variant, MiG-23 MLD Flogger K.

As for the engine, it was very hot - high operating temperature, not good enough materials - so it had limitations, could be kept at idle only for max. 10 min. on the ground and 15 min. in the air, otherwise it could get overheated, it needed huge amounts of air to be cooled - hence the high speed.

Overhauls had to be made every 500 flying hours or 7 years.

OT, but couldn't help myself on that....
Clothes and TVs is not the only thing "pirated" by Chinese industry:
http://www.mig-21.de/bilder/pL-7.jpg

This one looks TOO MUCH like R550 Magic II lol. Even the secondary fins have gone in unchanged Rolling Eyes

Quote:

All Fishbeds are unrecoverable if you get above 90 deg/sec. roll rate, so that's a no-return maximum.

Could you elaborate? I've never heard of this situation before, on any airplane. I understand how a max pitch rate could be exceeded, and be unrecoverable (I understand the B-2 and F-117 both are touchy on that one), but how could rolling too fast become unrecoverable?

seat dreamer wrote:

Quote:

OT, but couldn't help myself on that....
Clothes and TVs is not the only thing "pirated" by Chinese industry:
http://www.mig-21.de/bilder/pL-7.jpg

This one looks TOO MUCH like R550 Magic II lol. Even the secondary fins have gone in unchanged

In fact the PL-7 is a copy of the R550 Magic I - so it's tail aspect only, with lower performance than the original Magic I. The chinese themselves don't use it, it's only for export.

VPRGUY, I'm no aerodinamics expert, but I heard it myself from a MiG pilot on TV. The exact words were that "you could loose it [control of the plane] if you went past 90 deg. roll rate". Probably has got something to do with the fact that its wing surface is rather small and doesn't perform that well at low speeds.

MiG-21 is reported to have strong tendency to autorotation if rolled too fast and too long. Problem is the small wing area and small ailerons.

It will occur if you roll it 4-5 rolls without levelling.

Wings are very lightwight, allmost no load under wing (with underwing drop tanks hard maneuvers are forbidden), it roll very easy and for that purpose it has pretty light wing mechanics (you dont need large ailerons if plane rolls very easlily).

It is surely not so dangerous like F-104, but some maneuvers need extra caution.

Most of great Soviet jets are actually pretty dangerous to Western standards, because they had almost no electronics to control. It allows adverse maneuvers, but if you are not good enough, plane will kill you. Same thing is about Mig-29 - it is easy to go over the edge. Otherwise both 21 and 29 are good machines, only Flogger is sh*t - Phantom maneuverability and 60s avionics to counter F-15 and 16 - not good idea Rolling Eyes

In lot of cases good numbers are achieved in cost of safety for less experienced pilots - it goes for some other russian planes as well

The israeli upgrades of the Bis are very potent...

HMS, digital avionics, Pyphon 4, rumours also that it can carry Darby.

I wouldn't like to take it on in anything like a fair fight (pure 1 on 1) unless I had the latest generation aircraft from europe or america!

Andy

boff180, the Israeli upgrdes (Romanian MiG-21 M/MF/UM Lancer A,B,C, Ugandan and Cambodian bis) have only the Python 3.

I can't speak for the others, but the Romanian Lancer C can take the Python 4/5, Derby, AMRAAM, MICA, etc. They have a multimode ELTA EL-2032/M radar, only thing needed would be some minor software updates and the missiles themselves + the launch rails. Rumour has it it could be done (technically) in less than 24 hours if need be...

MiG-21bis had one shotcoming - its RP-22 radar, that proved useless in standalone operations without GCI cover.

But the ELTA radar does not eliminate his shortcomings in TW ratio and high wing loading. Main thing that often saves his a$$ is low weight - it is comparable with Gipen and it is far more lighter than american jets.

I think actually it needs modern Western jet engine and its TW and range problems can be improved.

Basically, Fishbed needs also better wings, but this (like engine swap) is nonsenss, because most of them have too few hours left.

Its relativeadvantage against more modern jets is its small size. It has also RCS comparable to F-16 and it was proved in Vietnam, that this plane is hard to spot in visual.

Fishbed has the same role in East that Phantom had in West - some of them will serve until 2010-2015 I think.

Horizontal maneuverability actually suffered when planes grow heavier - earlu Mig-21F-13 has a weight of 6 tons, but 21bis has weight over 9 tons. But wing area is the same and early 21F turns better that 21 bis. But bis has more power and better wing mechanics - so its vertical performance is better.

WVR, I would take early Mig-21F-13, put 21bis engine in it, hang in AIM-9X and JHMCS, hell a combo in dogfight.

1gen Fishbed has low spine compartment and all-classcanopy that is comparable in vision to modern jets. Good vision, good TW ratio, low weight and good missiles. Should be threated with respect

Only problem is that the 21 has very little life left in it.
Our airforce (Romania that is) will select a "new" fighter this year, first deliveries starting in 2008.
Already some of the 100+ Lancers have been mothballed - mainly the MiG-21M Lancer A. By 2010 we'll have around 40, plus 24 new fighters, by 2012-2014 all will be scrapped.
The indian Bison itself won't live long after 2015-2017, so it would be really a waste of money to adapt them to new engines or structures.
After all he MFDs, radars, RWRs, ECMs can be salvaged and put on other jets when you retire the 21s - that's if you choose to buy used planes as a replacement.

If you want a comaprison between the MiG-21bis and other aircraft just use this website:
http://www.airtoaircombat.com/compare.asp

Quote:

If you want a comaprison between the MiG-21bis and other aircraft just use this website:
http://www.airtoaircombat.com/compare.asp

That site has only the most basic data - and even that is wrong, or missing - lots of 0s in that list, especially regarding general performance.

RoAF wrote:

boff180, the Israeli upgrdes (Romanian MiG-21 M/MF/UM Lancer A,B,C, Ugandan and Cambodian bis) have only the Python 3.

I can't speak for the others, but the Romanian Lancer C can take the Python 4/5, Derby, AMRAAM, MICA, etc. They have a multimode ELTA EL-2032/M radar, only thing needed would be some minor software updates and the missiles themselves + the launch rails. Rumour has it it could be done (technically) in less than 24 hours if need be...

The Indian Bisons are also pretty capable.

They have a new MFD/HUD plus HOTAS and Sura HMCS
New Kopyo FCR with ~60 km range and R-77/ R-73 E capability, 2 target engage, 8 TWS
RLG based INS with GPS
New Tarang RWR and SPJ
New Chaff & Flares
Overhauled/ improved interiors and electrical system
R-77, R-27, R-73E, R-60 MK
KAB-500, KAB-250
KH-25 for ARM
New single piece canopy for much improved vision
...

Overall a big bang for the buck.