Forum: F-35 versus XYZ

RonO wrote:

Andy, you are correct I was not aware of these rumours about F-22 vs Typhoon. Nothing personal but I'm not very impressed by them. I think I'll wait until official exercises with formal ROE with in-service aircraft. These have the flavor of Aurora sightings.

On unit pricing. T1 & T2 pricing is not interesting. That information is historical. Either the aircarft have been delivered or firm contracts in place. It's future unit prices that are secret and the costing structures that lie behind them. Be like knowing what your car dealer paid last year. Interesting but not v. useful. As I said, the name of the game is to screw max $$ out of the saudi's.

Most amused by the thought of an F-104 beating anything at WVR.

cheers

You must not have ever seen what an AIM-9X or ASRAAM can do in the manuever department. All you need to do is get them in range. These and things like Python 5, IRIS-T, and so forth are making WVR combat VERY dangerous and reducing the relevance of being able to "turn up your own a$$".

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"...All you need to do is get them in range.."

aye, there's the rub

Quote:

aye, there's the rub

Shakespeare fan?

Just had to memorize that speech for English class this week.

RonO wrote:

"...All you need to do is get them in range.."

aye, there's the rub

Where's the rub? Do you honestly believe an F-104 couldn't get within 5 or 10 miles of a Typhoon under the given conditions? (That is to say forget about BVR since we're talking about strictly WVR.)

Yes that's what I believe. A Typhoon driver would have to be a complete idiot to allow that to happen. He/she has the network/sensor/control tools to avoid such a dumbass fight.

RonO wrote:

Yes that's what I believe. A Typhoon driver would have to be a complete idiot to allow that to happen. He/she has the network/sensor/control tools to avoid such a dumbass fight.

So even you agree that the only way a Typhoon could avoid getting shot down WVR by an F-104 with HOBs & HMS is to not get in a fight with it.

F-104 would be a hole the the ground long before it's wonder missiles would have a chance to be fired. There's a whole lot of nonsense talking about WM's making airframe performance redundant. Luckily the fighter design teams around the world are totally ignoring that crap as you can see from their latest products. Truth is that your F-104 would still have to get in a firing position against, in this case, an opponent with very real advantages in every meaningful parameter. There is no doubt the Typhoon driver would acquire and target the F-104 at BVR ranges before manouvering to gain advantage and as soon as visual id was confirmed via systems that vastly outrange F-104's, the f-104 would be dead. I doubt if the f-104 would ever acquire it's killer. Probably wouldn't even know it was in the vicinity.

In other words, WVR conflict will follow BVR acquisition/targetting (either native or off platform) and WVR does not mean pilot's unaided eyeballs. In other words, the notion that an F-104 could tippy toe up on a Typhoon so it could get within eyeball range before Mr Typhoon notices, is ludicrous.

cheers

RonO wrote:

F-104 would be a hole the the ground long before it's wonder missiles would have a chance to be fired. There's a whole lot of nonsense talking about WM's making airframe performance redundant. Luckily the fighter design teams around the world are totally ignoring that crap as you can see from their latest products. Truth is that your F-104 would still have to get in a firing position against, in this case, an opponent with very real advantages in every meaningful parameter. There is no doubt the Typhoon driver would acquire and target the F-104 at BVR ranges before manouvering to gain advantage and as soon as visual id was confirmed via systems that vastly outrange F-104's, the f-104 would be dead. I doubt if the f-104 would ever acquire it's killer. Probably wouldn't even know it was in the vicinity.

In other words, WVR conflict will follow BVR acquisition/targetting (either native or off platform) and WVR does not mean pilot's unaided eyeballs. In other words, the notion that an F-104 could tippy toe up on a Typhoon so it could get within eyeball range before Mr Typhoon notices, is ludicrous.

cheers

Not crap.....

Aircraft are being optimised for BVR combat... this sometimes means a limited manouverability and a HOBs certainly changes the odds if they merged. Have a read of the Australian journal paper (i.e. academically + technically + scientifically correct and NOT a magazine article) why they chose ASRAAM and how it (with the help of sensors and HMS) can significantly increase its survivability in combat regardless of aircraft type.
http://www.ausairpower.net/asraam.pdf

And thinking that aircraft won't get into a merge, ask the Omani airforce! They soundly defeated a US carrier air wing during the early 90's by utilising the terrain and hugging till the fighter sweeps had passed over and then hit (and completely wiped out, I add) the attack component in WVR... using Jaguars and Hunters with Aim-9P's!

In the end of the day the biggest word in combat is TACTICS.

Andy

Don't disagree with your first sentence a whole lot but the topic was F-104 for crissake. Not known as the flying brick for nothing. Wonder missiles aint that wonderful. Keep trucking down that path and you can end up convincing yourself that a 707 can whup an F-15.

It's interesting to note that Russia led the way in developing highly manouverable close range missiles (forcing the West to play catch up) at the same time as leading the way in highly manouverable airframes.

BTW, quoting Kopp and exercise rumours doesn't do it for me. Kopp is well known on at least 3 continents to be a major a$$.

Biggest word is the pilot. Typhoon's strength is the way it allows the driver to be the very best he/she can be. I'm betting you agree with me on that Smile

cheers

Yeah I agree.
The Omani one is definately real mate, I'll have to dig out the article on it, the Omani's bragged to high heaven at beating the USN on exercise hehe! They claimed the F-14s + 18s never detected them on Radar once, which is believable with the amount of canyons and gorges in Oman, plenty of hiding places for the Jags and Hunters to hide in especially being ex-RAF pilots who specialise in low low low flying.

Andy

More on that Omani ex`.If it`s the same exercise I am thinking of....it was posted on another forum with a story attached to it... One of the USN pilots had to land for some minor maintenance/or courtesy I think at an OMANI base. While they had the pilot in the bar....the Omani and RAF pilots seconded to Oman searched his plane and found the attack plans for the USN wing in it!!

It was then an easy matter to whup USN a$$!
Carlo Kopp sounds very convincing but then I am not a combat pilot!!!
I have read too many times that he is a sh@ttalker.... Cool

Wonder missiles AND a GREAT pilot, now that`s one hell of a combination Wink

See we all agree Smile

My favorite exercise story, I have no idea if it's true, was when Invincible & Sea Harriers first played with a US CVN. The Americans read their books which said the Harrier had a 100 mile ROA. They knew Invincible was further away that that so they were out sunbathing when the Harriers made their first pass. Problem was that the quoted Harrier range was for VTOL while the Brits STOVLed. Hope it's true but probably isn't. Most of these tales have their origins in the pilot's bar. Leg pulls are universal.

RonO wrote:

F-104 would be a hole the the ground long before it's wonder missiles would have a chance to be fired. There's a whole lot of nonsense talking about WM's making airframe performance redundant. Luckily the fighter design teams around the world are totally ignoring that crap as you can see from their latest products. Truth is that your F-104 would still have to get in a firing position against, in this case, an opponent with very real advantages in every meaningful parameter. There is no doubt the Typhoon driver would acquire and target the F-104 at BVR ranges before manouvering to gain advantage and as soon as visual id was confirmed via systems that vastly outrange F-104's, the f-104 would be dead. I doubt if the f-104 would ever acquire it's killer. Probably wouldn't even know it was in the vicinity.

In other words, WVR conflict will follow BVR acquisition/targetting (either native or off platform) and WVR does not mean pilot's unaided eyeballs. In other words, the notion that an F-104 could tippy toe up on a Typhoon so it could get within eyeball range before Mr Typhoon notices, is ludicrous.

cheers

You're missing the forest for the trees. I have no doubt the Typhoon would handle it BVR. This little exercise began to demonstrate that a Typhoon getting a WVR kill on a Raptor that didn't have HOBS or HMS is nothing to write home about. Take your Typhoon and put it in a WVR fight with an F-104 equipped with HOBS and HMS and REMOVE it from the Typhoon and see what happens. As I said, nothing to write home about.

Dead horse, stick, here goes:

It's the "put it in a WFR" fight that's so unrealistic. The F-104 doesn't have the capability to get there so your whole scenario is nonsense. You might as well say if a Sopwith gets on the tail of a Typhoon it's dogmeat. You can say it and you're free to imagine it but it's still bull.

PS I don't believe the Typhoon vs F-22 rumours anyway. Both fleets are way too busy to be playing games right now.

boff180 wrote:

the total cost may be classified... but work it out from the current unit price of £64.8million

£64.8 million for the Typhoon at the current exchange rate (£1.0 = $1.83) means the cost of the Typhoon cost $116.58 USD!!

boff180 wrote:

one occassion, a 17Sqn aircraft tracked and locked a 22 at 80Km.

This is a best case situation and it is not something that is dependable every day due to the envirement.

boff180 wrote:

some people claim the F-22 must of been carrying external tanks or a signal intensifier

They are called "corner reflectors" or Luneberg lenses. They are needed for ATC, just like those on the F-117's or B-2's.

sferrin wrote:

Do you honestly believe an F-104 couldn't get within 5 or 10 miles of a Typhoon under the given conditions?

Do you mean like this photo of an F/A-18E/F gunning an F-22
SEE -http://www.alert5.com/2006/04/fa-18f-guns-down-f-22a.html

Adrian

Forum: F-35 versus XYZ

JSF on Typhoon, Typhoon on JSF