Forum: Air Power

What if the same exercise was run again with the same restrictions/rules.
And the f/a-22 was substituted for the f-15? No 45 mile amraam shot's,sames rules!Same 3-1 disadvantage in jets. THE ONLY FOLKS WHO CAN
RESPOND ARE PILOTS,OR TECH FOLKS WITH WEAPONS,OR AIRCRAFT ENGINEERING BACKGROUNDS.

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Capt-soap wrote:

THE ONLY FOLKS WHO CAN
RESPOND ARE PILOTS,OR TECH FOLKS WITH WEAPONS,OR AIRCRAFT ENGINEERING BACKGROUNDS.

Isn't this another (name the airframe) vs (name the airframe) thread? When I read what everyone posts there is allot of discussion about capabilities of the jets involved, but it seems that you always tend to agree that it comes down to the pilot.

So limiting the responses to only those who qualify to the above seems like your limiting the range of answers you will get, and therefore get a biased answer. I will be interested to see what the responses are anyway.

This is not a true X vs Y thread because of the ROE that limited us in 04. I'm asking how much better would the F/A-22 do, with the same restrictions.

If its the amateur aviation press... the SU-3x will always win. Laughing

Quote:

If its the amateur aviation press... the SU-3x will always win

What?

Just because you dont agree with what a press says, you will call it "amateur". I gotta a feeling that your trying to get us ready for the Cope 05 Rolling Eyes

results from the "amateur" press.

Leave it to the pilots you say? I agree. Some of the pilots that I talk to agree with what the press says about the SU 30XX.

Are they amateur too?

Shev Very Happy

Guess it depends on who the pilots were that you spoke to. What are their names, and what aircraft do they fly?

I'm with Elp. "Amateur press" in this case would mean civilian publications with no real military aviation background, or hack internet bloggers that pretend like they're in the know.

The newest Flankers are good planes, but they get a lot of good press from civilians who thought the Cobra maneuver they witnessed at the Paris Airshow looked cool. However, you can't argue with 104.5-0 or 70-0 kill ratios. The idiots in the press are not the ones that say the Flanker is a great jet, but the ones who saw the results of Cope India, and thought the Eagle was finished. People who say this are misinformed, and clearly have no background in fighter aviation.

Anyway, what do you really want to know with this thread? Here's my thoughts, as I formerly worked for LM in the Raptor program: Anytime you start limiting an aircraft's capabilities or its tactics, you lower the chances of its success. I'd suggest you read through the Vietnam Tactics thread, and you will start to get the idea.

In this case, are we limiting the Raptors to WVR? If so, it would still be difficult for the Flanker to get a lock for a heater shot. Are we limiting the Raptors to no supercruise? It can still out-turn, out -climb, and out-accelerate the Flanker.

The Eagles were limited in their capabilities, because the combination of the Eagle's radar, and missiles, AND the skill of our pilots would have been extremely difficult for the Indians to defeat. We weren't trying to wipe them out. We were teaching them DACT, and at the same time learning the capabilities/limitations of the Flanker.

My Two Cents

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

The same rules of engagement apply that the F-15's had: no AMRAAM shot beyond 20 miles, 3-1 odds.

Elite 1K Joined: May 26, 2005 - 08:39 PM Posts: 1496

Oh, and the F-22 pilots have to be blindfolded and have one arm tied up. And it has to be a full moon.

These exercises aren't about "who has the better aircraft". They are about "how can both come away from this having learned something useful".

Correctamundo! Guysmiley has it. If we had wanted to turn Cope India '04 into a pissing contest with the Indians, the Eagles could have gone over there and cleaned house. However, that would not have taught either side much of anything. The civilian press, and the kiddies on this site don't seem to understand that. They only see the face value results, and draw the conclusions that they want, in order to best suit their agenda.

It would probably shock you if I said that no self-respecting fighter pilot tries to get into a turning dogfight. Of the MiG killers I knew from ODS, only one had to turn with the Fulcrum he was pursuing, but he was on the MiG's 6 the entire time. The other MiG killers I knew from ODS all got their kills with missile shots from a safe distance.

Exercises like Red Flag, Cope Thunder, and Cope India, are much more intense than anything we face in real combat. That is what makes our pilots so successful in real world scenarios. What we do in exercises prepares us for what we likely won't have to do in combat.

The days of going up and trolling the skies blindly, and by chance, finding a MiG, and dogfighting him ended in Korea. So you see how dumb these ABC v. XYZ hypothetical threads really are.

Here's a realistic scenario for you...

Wild Weasels go in first, and wipe out the SAM radars.

EA-6s go in and jam all radars and communications

Strike packs take out runways, hardened aircraft shelters, and command and control bunkers.

IF any bandits even get the opportunity to takeoff, THEN CAPs come in, aided by AWACS, and shoot from a distance. The bandits would be flying blind. No GCI, and nothing guiding the jets.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Quote:

Here's a realistic scenario for you...

Wild Weasels go in first, and wipe out the SAM radars.

EA-6s go in and jam all radars and communications

Strike packs take out runways, hardened aircraft shelters, and command and control bunkers.

Don't forget the 150 or more cruise missiles that go in before the weasels to soften things up, targeting certain aircraft/airfields and their support areas, radars, AD network centers, power relays, etc., etc. JL Raleigh NC

Oh yes. Thanks for that one Mastiff. This Bud's For You! Beer

The strike packs even catch somewhat of a break with the Tomahawks and ALCMs.

Basically by the time it gets down to a fighter v. fighter situation, the other side is just pissing in the breeze, fighting blindly. This is why the age of the fighters which will supplement the Raptor is not a big concern of mine. If I had to take an Eagle or Viper into combat, I'd go anytime.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Forum: Air Power

cope india 04/ what if ?